From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:52:10 -0700 Received: from mail-ot1-f57.google.com ([209.85.210.57]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1wD3TG-0008EC-2u for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:52:10 -0700 Received: by mail-ot1-f57.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7d7e995a87csf6745354a34.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:52:09 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1776271924; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=jW5R6G3sSi/BAvgjF2zAcyI/qiDgrwA9jTdx50uMICnm+2ijHN+a8kZuWQgBzuhtH8 G1/6DvCcrX7Q09jROU8JX1NIzG2pnOTJKatnyk+D8fgu65d/1IpfgBKTEwiWekZdOWVq v6WVeegC5MJPm1icT/LGFaD0A/M0lS/NF6yvEBkIAnu3Ov3nVfLOyvG8Mup7nDKNHXDn x4DfvZL+f5DQGGU+fcIuleEZyHH9U+3YrbOohBhYWe0lQ7qRWyjlIp/esabFTzZEu4DD dNoluez3NzKEZJZilJEirk+utV/aam23UpwXMyEWZkgBZaeoWOJzppr+3wnCb3vgfijG Prbw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:from:content-transfer-encoding:sender:dkim-signature; bh=xPknFb870hrZsPk3av5HA5Cq0rPwc8Qf349uk9WMCPk=; fh=q+qZhV3TmGuUG+RmYbNso0jkoMxqDO8Skn9VQAQ959g=; b=f67Bym4a9WQZurW/40e+NYj9fQ/yx0g1Q8FYiGGeb3fagCo3ewaOfaOxN6njuGMVMG n3mQVgWbD6cZPHQBSa+150TU4SoMGn+0aNeDmxeHSunTEnbzmRnhy4g/1IMHDnIqAI42 L2ILzVFGAAHuThnzueEjIEJuA5pHGCYwAwbL7mjY+I9Qval388FwDj21nW4ag9k6V8Yp sYzh5HhduCVBXKfaxrFzIJUpcmGa/U6Qp/XnuXu0ftU0CJaj9Flk517biZtt6S4xvRQs tRyLrcx96aM2SgKtF2fZx9yn8uY3yUkpy6eoYuv2LXqsRgQOb/+A935CmnQxOfnkJMEe aL1g==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1776268862 header.b=O9zM0FcT; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1776268865 header.b=TQpav5uN; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20251104; t=1776271924; x=1776876724; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xPknFb870hrZsPk3av5HA5Cq0rPwc8Qf349uk9WMCPk=; b=Uczd1daWI3cpJEh1npfgyXgvcXeVOCc6WtIE17wE2FbwQ9Zub9v72ShjGDQLGBTn53 ir/V2iW0WSC95ptJVbKLknYMjobg4VapeVvJJ71EZ2W3X4ml6bo75zXnWYgRNMpyyxmy fEehDNLw40pAKtxnETjJe8BSQ/kJ4Kpz8IK9epf7e+mHLznS81h5tWOY18mEC7Y16WOx s5baYOGKqgMid2qhx3NbBNNRPUkBI8mocsC17rgPIvQHGxVKgL6apR+VyGD3HWap3yEx toj68tlLEBe/fex9BY6cD9dtA9ZMYf5F7GLyJwMAW9rrCY+Y4by/KLMS3i2iYb88o0Bc cz7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1776271924; x=1776876724; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xPknFb870hrZsPk3av5HA5Cq0rPwc8Qf349uk9WMCPk=; b=kvGASUQ96QVewjpswPy7vnjTr1TqD9UJ/5CgKitmaEWgofiC5pu8UYFyM20VYnHMKf bDoK5sar93YnahXRIuVDGTUfh3Z4kgTsQREwgNFpG0ASZecKf+yb7Q6pTnuBYFHvSlIj 9zdVGWHmu38Wc3m6qiviXLENPQXLzNyGH4JkIooG1lJ9nn4E2YFJC34Rodu58sKCuk7A 24fsoF82dPAuP2TYVA7iVxlviM7b86bslfstMZAlEX12i7mGWi6OeKvi/IC0Xf7t/M5I i++QMn/3rneXsUz1u8CcmV8eb1+W+ezvJOFzSMVljMZrOnSr5J82pZCqY5gyJdqeARlv 7J1w== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AFNElJ+h1M3UfH2TgCW4qtpfikSqeffYpSHAzMACWgPN8aHwR6DCRJ6QvXTs3M8sFOT+LbVmIgf5wyQCsdq9@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzhpQJ50H/7ioJ+jmoJ2IR6zc9VYexBf2WqGP2Unr+VGafmir/T WGkurrL7JXuHOb8OOhJmW89uLd4oEu/wynCCT8RAmZ01bDhciecgty4s X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:c0ce:10b0:685:3561:8941 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-68be7ee1c80mr8488806eaf.36.1776271923837; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h="AYAyTiJB7GoxZTn/t9JW+Vxny9Cbrq1I3lsMlXSNiwR2V6YSAg==" Received: by 2002:a05:6820:169f:b0:67b:a4a9:83b9 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-68bbc551427ls3365106eaf.0.-pod-prod-07-us; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:51:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:c173:b0:46a:746c:2d53 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4789e71ec8cmr11290900b6e.2.1776271919009; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:30da:b0:46b:22a1:35fc with SMTP id 5614622812f47-47974646e16msb6e; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:38:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fc4e:b0:35f:bddd:3860 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-35fbddd407fmr11305242a91.6.1776271094875; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:38:14 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1776271094; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=FdMDqucF6UKO9GBineIvmBGK8mVuItKLZQ8A3vurrhAc4qCe4p3f+mYlAiezK3m3/9 gAA6erQFNQ02y6BPvsQLqGHdy7/gvx2CpRvIb5hjsL2tyjY4Gvcg+n6iX1ICxlk6Xwyt fUPlwN2eoSYX8sm8WfJ+F+JtBNX5TJEstHhrEquU/nTQh1lSwb+LCjmaJawteiX4FbV+ thSn6xnDCrYY69RvpgpssJjwy0XamvflE+LO8BOZl6Hf9gg1CTuOuuAvue9KnWoz+WEQ 9VantpNxsvenFAhM043gvniZddMb5CU/Gb3HAcfUY+T/M/9Xla9AWnqB8FWsT6GuVAYu g5YA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:dkim-signature:dkim-signature; bh=pbJU9xl0IL85n23+qmXGtryYZ2lE3kWceacBmwaRnmc=; fh=VcGcg+Zjs9gw1uDcHbxsAILhBAcecnbJzZRdxgKVDIc=; b=B9HrkmRh1IRqCmdeqxSGlfbGI71nPlc6ur2fcI/r9LqYUbQNhkXVbH28uU6DxzzxMR MgT7l6/EsZX5ul6CYuTrkA1APYdWVuGPuDJBLYKqekSMMrPRyktfX8r0RsFQ59dsMkfz 1ULZdrkhc+3JHSn17m9vONWYeTs8+3NZW/aalUj0zPxNVEMAmFg2eyyXcAw8Y/p+6LzK 0IsThIf6KOpkh8EPzJAoutb5FOdwshWzKTpOBhH8FhxhIm/ZZOXr66UWlVQ/rnVym+ZZ Rc+NAVSEy0SY4hJIC6xOgFsqWOiGUt3N3KPAiAlt4JsNs/wdcBaHqm9bclUMFLWJmrs+ oApg==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1776268862 header.b=O9zM0FcT; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1776268865 header.b=TQpav5uN; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com Received: from mail.as397444.net (mail.as397444.net. [2620:6e:a000:1::99]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-35fce715bccsi72413a91.0.2026.04.15.09.38.14 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 15 Apr 2026 09:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) client-ip=2620:6e:a000:1::99; X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/mattcorallo.com and X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/clients.mail.as397444.net X-DKIM-Note: For more info, see https://as397444.net/dkim/ Received: by mail.as397444.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) (Exim) (envelope-from ) id 1wD3Fm-00000005ytj-08pY for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; Wed, 15 Apr 2026 16:38:14 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matt Corallo Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2026 12:37:57 -0400 X-Universally-Unique-Identifier: 97343860-E876-412F-9801-FB28A712C26C X-Apple-Notify-Thread: NO Message-Id: <05E6D06B-1F72-48F6-B4F3-0225675BCC1F@mattcorallo.com> Subject: [bitcoindev] PQC - What is our Goal, Even? X-Apple-Message-Smime-Encrypt: NO To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lf-lists@mattcorallo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1776268862 header.b=O9zM0FcT; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1776268865 header.b=TQpav5uN; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Its become obvious in recent discussions that a large part of the PQC discu= ssion has people coming at it from very different fundamental goals, and as= a result the conversations often talk past each other without making real = progress. So instead of doing that more I'd like to write down what I think= the actual, short-term goal *is*, what it it is not. Fundamentally, it seems to me the most reasonable goal is that we should be= seeking to increase the number of coins which are reasonably likely to be = secured by the time a CRQC exists. Put another way, we should be seeking to= minimize the chance that the Bitcoin community feels the need to fork to b= urn coins by reducing the number of coins which can be stolen to the minimu= m number [1]. This naturally means focusing on the wallets which are the *least likely* t= o migrate or otherwise get themselves in a safe spot. Focusing on those who= are the most likely to migrate does almost nothing to move the needle on t= he total number of coins protected, nor, thus, on the probability of a futu= re Bitcoin community feeling the need to burn coins. Sadly, this probably m= eans the "top wallets" that are generally terrible at adopting Bitcoin stan= dards. Wallets which are the top listing on app stores like (currently in t= he top few in my app store): Bitcoin.com, Trust Wallet, Coinbase Wallet, Bl= ockchain.com, etc. These wallets generally use a single static address (bec= ause anything else confuses their users and they get additional support tic= kets for it!) and put very little time into Bitcoin, focusing instead on ot= her tokens and integrations. A few non-goals: * To ensure that advanced setups have the absolute best in post-quantum sec= urity. I don't see how this moves the needle on the above goal, and in fact= in many cases detracts from the above goal. Of course if we can accomplish= this without detracting from the top-line goal above, great. * To ensure we have the best possible design for the signature scheme bitco= in will be using in a world where a CRQC exists and we've gotten past the m= ess. We'll almost certainly know a lot more about the security of various s= chemes and have more options for how to approach the problem by the point w= e're dealing with the mess of a CRQC being imminent, so it seems like a foo= ls errand to try to predict what we should build for this. But even if we k= now no more then than we do today, likely ending up with hash-based signatu= res as the scheme everyone uses, we'll almost certainly be having conversat= ions about additional witness discounts or increased block sizes to compens= ate for the sudden increase in transaction sizes. Maybe we would decide aga= inst such an increase, but there's no question such a conversation would ha= ppen and it would be premature to have it today. Matt [1] Of course I believe that the lost coin pool is large enough that the Bi= tcoin community will, almost without question, fork to disable insecure spe= nd paths and burn some coins in the process, but reducing the number of coi= ns burned to the absolute minimum is of course best for everyone. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 05E6D06B-1F72-48F6-B4F3-0225675BCC1F%40mattcorallo.com.