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Sat, 16 May 2026 19:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:398d:b0:482:48e1:cdf1 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-482e55ac0damr7967088b6e.5.1778983807128; Sat, 16 May 2026 19:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6386:b0:79a:c9dc:1f8d with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7c696e2f471ms7b3; Sat, 16 May 2026 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:f09:b0:7ba:f690:70be with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7c9594b397fmr115584417b3.7.1778983780112; Sat, 16 May 2026 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 May 2026 19:09:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Voskuil To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <26c7fd2e-d35d-4ed4-9638-18c95efc75dfn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <19616822-8a03-4de1-99be-72d50479208fn@googlegroups.com> <02c201dce227$e808e050$b81aa0f0$@voskuil.org> <002301dce4cf$27bc3040$773490c0$@voskuil.org> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: [BIP Draft] P2P UTXO Set Sharing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_525616_292093300.1778983779512" X-Original-Sender: eric@voskuil.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) ------=_Part_525616_292093300.1778983779512 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_525617_327020899.1778983779512" ------=_Part_525617_327020899.1778983779512 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" From: Fabian > The header chain is fully validated before the snapshot is loaded, Validating the headers is inconsequential if you are not verifying tx inclusion. That's what SPV is, and people should not be misled into believing that this is SPV. > and the historical blocks are validated in the background. The issue is the time before that completing. After validating it's moot. > The work is the same, only the node becomes usable earlier. Until the work is complete the node is not usable in the sense of a node - it hasn't validated. > AssumeUTXO is anchored to a hash that is hardcoded in Bitcoin Core > and reviewed in the open. Anyone running a fully validating node can > independently reproduce it from their own UTXO set. In this proposal there is no statement that everyone must trust Bitcoin Core. The proposal specifically states: "The Merkle root is the sole trust input required to verify the integrity of the received UTXO set." and "[The Merkle root is]... either from a trusted source or by selecting a root with agreement among multiple peers." The "agreement among peers" is why Bitcoin exists, so we can dismiss that as an infinite regression. Above you make the explicit claim that Bitcoin Core is the oracle for this "sole trust input". If that is the case you should add it to the proposal so that people are fully aware. If so the proposal establishes a central authority for validity. If not then we are back to the original problem that Bitcoin supposedly solved - where does this agreement come from. Best, Eric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/26c7fd2e-d35d-4ed4-9638-18c95efc75dfn%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_525617_327020899.1778983779512 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Fabian

> The header chain is fully validated before the= snapshot is loaded,

Validating the headers is inconsequential i= f you are not verifying tx inclusion. That's what SPV is, and people should= not be misled into believing that this is SPV.

> and the his= torical blocks are validated in the background.

The issue is the= time before that completing. After validating it's moot.

> = The work is the same, only the node becomes usable earlier.

Unti= l the work is complete the node is not usable in the sense of a node - it h= asn't validated.

> AssumeUTXO is anchored to a hash that is h= ardcoded in Bitcoin Core
> and reviewed in the open. Anyone running= a fully validating node can
> independently reproduce it from thei= r own UTXO set.

In this proposal there is no statement that ever= yone must trust Bitcoin Core. The proposal specifically states:

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The Merkle root is the sole trust input required to verify t= he integrity of the received UTXO set."

and

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 "[The Merkle root is]... either from a trusted source or by selectin= g a root with agreement among multiple peers."

The "agreement am= ong peers" is why Bitcoin exists, so we can dismiss that as an infinite reg= ression.

Above you make the explicit claim that Bitcoin Core is = the oracle for this "sole trust input". If that is the case you should add = it to the proposal so that people are fully aware.

If so the pro= posal establishes a central authority for validity. If not then we are back= to the original problem that Bitcoin supposedly solved - where does this a= greement come from.

Best,
Eric

--
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