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Wed, 29 Oct 2025 19:16:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1522:b0:43f:9a39:9d09 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-44f7a554350mr2426999b6e.50.1761790616890; Wed, 29 Oct 2025 19:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:38d:b0:74f:1486:e2a9 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-785daab994dms7b3; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:710a:b0:784:8673:6f66 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7861815d4fcmr5848757b3.55.1761586030858; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 10:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 10:27:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Max To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <2774a0b5-fd65-494b-ac23-f3726754eda7n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5ddcfb0f-665e-4f0e-987e-80b9bb77ff5bn@googlegroups.com> References: <5ddcfb0f-665e-4f0e-987e-80b9bb77ff5bn@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Reduced Data Temporary Softfork MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_76294_1856379901.1761586030481" X-Original-Sender: maxpaxdownlow@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) ------=_Part_76294_1856379901.1761586030481 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76295_383947577.1761586030482" ------=_Part_76295_383947577.1761586030482 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why don't we just quickly soft fork to disallow large OP_RETURN outputs=20 (i.e. keep them capped to 80 bytes) only, with forward-looking activation= =20 (no retroactive block invalidation)? This would give the market a clear and= =20 simple way to decide whether such transactions are acceptable or not. It=20 wouldn't have any of the issues mentioned so far in the discussion like=20 creating an incentive to put CSAM or other illegal content to attempt a=20 reorg double spend due to the complex deployment mechanism proposed in=20 BIP-444 or like putting in jeopardy existing Taproot functionality by=20 touching other primitives. We don't actually need to remove all the=20 mechanisms that can be used for embedding data (which has been demonstrated= =20 to be impossible). Rather what we need is to give users the opportunity to= =20 signal whether arbitrary data is welcome or not. If the legal concerns are compelling enough to warrant consensus changes,= =20 miners should support a clean soft fork immediately. If the market quickly= =20 adopts the new consensus-level OP_RETURN restrictions it would announce=20 sufficiently clearly to the world that arbitrary data is not welcome and=20 deter future attempts to bring that to Bitcoin by showing the network's=20 readiness to resist such efforts. I believe that this PR is too dramatic=20 and needlessly complicated for what we need: letting the market decide=20 whether to accept or reject the explicit invitation for arbitrary data=20 storage that Core v30 has created. Technical changes should be limited to= =20 this question only and simple enough for people to make a decision without= =20 being distracted or overwhelmed by adjacent issues. On Monday, October 27, 2025 at 10:53:31=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Jal Toorey wrote: > "bitcoin is money" > > The definition of what is money is extremely subjective. The history of= =20 > it shows this (not the history saifedean paints). Trying to direct the=20 > development to capture a definition of money opens a huge attack vector.= =20 > It's not different than trying to decide what is spam.=20 > > Also what is the difference between the bashers slogan that bitcoin is p2= p=20 > money and "bitcoin is money" They seem like the same thing?=20 > On Sunday, October 26, 2025 at 3:43:26=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7 Peter Todd wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 08:43:11PM +0000, dathonohm via Bitcoin=20 >> Development Mailing List wrote:=20 >> > Hi list -=20 >> >=20 >> > Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has become necessary= =20 >> to move forward on [luke-jr's ML proposal]( >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017) to temporarily limit=20 >> arbitrary data at the consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks with no= =20 >> objections:=20 >> >=20 >> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017=20 >> >> Transaction=20 >> 8e2ee13d2a19951c2777bb3a54f0cb69a2f76dae8baa954cd86149ed1138cb6c=20 >> contains the full text of this BIP as of writing(1), while simultaneousl= y=20 >> being=20 >> compliant with that BIP.=20 >> >> Clearly, this approach is ineffective.=20 >> >> 1)=20 >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/3c718237072c107ced8c3531a487354fbda= e55df/bip-%3F%3F%3F%3F.mediawiki=20 >> >> --=20 >> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org=20 >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 2774a0b5-fd65-494b-ac23-f3726754eda7n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_76295_383947577.1761586030482 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why don't we just quickly soft fork to disallow large OP_RETURN outputs (i.= e. keep them capped to 80 bytes) only, with forward-looking activation (no = retroactive block invalidation)? This would give the market a clear and sim= ple way to decide whether such transactions are acceptable or not. It would= n't have any of the issues mentioned so far in the discussion like creating= an incentive to put CSAM or other illegal content to attempt a reorg doubl= e spend due to the complex deployment mechanism proposed in BIP-444 or like= putting in jeopardy existing Taproot functionality by touching other primi= tives. We don't actually need to remove all the mechanisms that can be used= for embedding data (which has been demonstrated to be impossible). Rather = what we need is to give users the opportunity to signal whether arbitrary d= ata is welcome or not.

If the legal concerns are compelling enou= gh to warrant consensus changes, miners should support a clean soft fork im= mediately. If the market quickly adopts the new consensus-level OP_RETURN r= estrictions it would announce sufficiently clearly to the world that arbitr= ary data is not welcome and deter future attempts to bring that to Bitcoin = by showing the network's readiness to resist such efforts. I believe that t= his PR is too dramatic and needlessly complicated for what we need: letting= the market decide whether to accept or reject the explicit invitation for = arbitrary data storage that Core v30 has created. Technical changes should = be limited to this question only and simple enough for people to make a dec= ision without being distracted or overwhelmed by adjacent issues.

On Mond= ay, October 27, 2025 at 10:53:31=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Jal Toorey wrote:
"bitcoin is money"

The def= inition of what is money is extremely subjective.=C2=A0 The history of it s= hows this (not the history saifedean paints). Trying to direct the developm= ent to capture a definition of money opens a huge attack vector. It's n= ot different than trying to decide what is spam.=C2=A0

Also what is = the difference between the bashers slogan that bitcoin is p2p money and &qu= ot;bitcoin is money"=C2=A0 They seem like the same thing?=C2=A0
On Sunday, Octob= er 26, 2025 at 3:43:26=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7 Peter Todd wrote:
On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 08:43:11PM +000= 0, dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List wrote:
> Hi list -
>=20
> Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has become neces= sary to move forward on [luke-jr's ML proposal](https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/20= 17) to temporarily limit arbitrary data at the consensus level, which s= o far has 3 weeks with no objections:
>=20
> https:/= /github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017

Transaction 8e2ee13d2a19951c2777bb3a54f0cb69a2f76dae8baa954cd86149ed113= 8cb6c
contains the full text of this BIP as of writing(1), while simultaneous= ly being
compliant with that BIP.

Clearly, this approach is ineffective.

1) https://github.com/bitc= oin/bips/blob/3c718237072c107ced8c3531a487354fbdae55df/bip-%3F%3F%3F%3F.med= iawiki

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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