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[202.12.124.148]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-37df3b5d743si208683a91.3.2026.06.26.04.06.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 26 Jun 2026 04:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.148 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.148; Received: from phl-compute-05.internal (phl-compute-05.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFA71D0011C; Fri, 26 Jun 2026 07:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-frontend-04 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-05.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 26 Jun 2026 07:06:22 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: dmFkZTEBSkBQH1f9AVEegLxuspmwZgLhculyMVKjjMEqWH0keIHuVcufv+LYBEi/Fxk+B4 chebNyP1G4ZL/OXf6NL06O/LZoDLUvO/rD3ZYD4kHteKsp0UCSbvyZ0ztJsS7JFN8BZpL4 6YFb0eHXio5a8t2wgGFwkgOr01RNff5Y6SBu/QULlBeQJ7Wc/6H4mmwGFvGG/uKMciMvKE 3/Uwvp5XqXwCZe+hw9kzwtkJCdjGaQRhsa4lAZglvptWdjGqlN7CW2T6Oz+xDYhD/8A622 pZ3LCe6OfNslCy+UphAQiwZsqFmc0GsjAKzfPrGjhWAqDFJ9Aj0GxL48kS/l67ANYpPkKI 6vBuuGymxJyjujkhu+JdNr5djO11EkaDnjHe1PjgS0gzAwzACrb7zA8VwyJEwaclgHZRou U+Us0r7KwT0aJPyP1CVeHWz03nWiqGRtpWga+fRn7weLpdnd0rxxzcqQ3QBjXXfcm+eVan AbIUEBI6SkxeCsWJ/KH9dJNT392mhTjbNtmYoSASV/RWO5r7dom8MGrU3LpEjfXG+zDKiX JOkmwndzbC0Ekig03kN/ELwBODN1Yvyne+i1nG5mJtohrHffMMf/G5FTau/vuIqSE/0zeY uA3qSTNnVDfJjVKr4IZe6i7yta18maPpSN3KY7mH0OR+ysJeaT/DTWuXvXwg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 26 Jun 2026 07:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Giving teeth to expected EC disabling: P2XX(-T)(-ML) From: Sjors Provoost In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2026 13:06:09 +0200 Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BB9E83D-086E-4F6A-BE15-677D8589EA1E@sprovoost.nl> References: To: Nagaev Boris , Pieter Wuille X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.600.51.1.1) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=fduKgm0h; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=ZN1zSCaX; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) Hi Boris and Pieter, I agree that the potential for premature activation is a downside of Miner = Lockdown. It could come with a very long window (years) between signalling = and activation. That way users who consider it premature can mass migrate b= ack to P2TR, only to return to P2TRv2 / P2TMR at a moment of their choosin= g. In the other direction, there's a a positive incentive to not wait too long= : the 100 block coinbase maturity makes them more vulnerable to short-range= attacks (for P2TRv2, but not P2TMR). I think it's important that a proposal involving the eventual trimming of i= ts own spending paths, includes the activation mechanism(s) for such trimmi= ng. At least some of the mechanisms. I'm also worried that miners don't want to carry such heavy burden of respo= nsibility, and deal with political pressure (in both directions). In that c= ase they would oppose inclusion of ML in the two-stage proposal, and that w= ould be very useful to learn early on. - Sjors > Op 26 jun 2026, om 05:40 heeft Nagaev Boris het volge= nde geschreven: >=20 > Hi Pieter, >=20 > I think Tripwire is an improvement to all "Later" versions of P2MR, > P2TRv2, and P2TRH. Given coin owners have pre-agreed to later > lockdown, having an upper bound does not harm. >=20 > For Miner Lockdown, I see a potential false-positive activation. A > large classical theft may happen, be misinterpreted as a CRQC event, > and miners may lock the EC path with the best intentions, but it turns > out to be a false alarm. Shouldn't there be a mechanism for > reactivation in this case? We have historical examples of bugs causing > large-scale or initially mysterious thefts: Milk Sad, Android > SecureRandom 2013, and the LuBian 2020 theft. A similar event in the > future could be confused with Q-day, and miners could push the button. > [...] > Best, > Boris >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jun 25, 2026 at 1:31=E2=80=AFPM Pieter Wuille wrote: >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> In parallel to the threads[1][2][3] discussing the P2TRv2 and P2MR >> concepts, I'd like to talk about the possibility of codifying in the >> consensus rules the (expectation of) the disabling of EC opcodes/paths >> within the new output type. [...] >> Specifically, as part of the softfork definition, a NUMS point is >> picked. Whenever a transaction is mined whose input contains a successf= ul >> " OP_CHECKSIG", EC opcodes/paths are disabled within the new >> output type, as of the next block. >>=20 >> Note that the tripwire isn't intended as a replacement for the expected >> future EC-disabling softfork; instead, it puts an upper bound on that >> disabling. >>=20 >> * Miner Lockdown (P2XX-ML): allow a hashrate majority/threshold to trigg= er >> the disabling, allowing a faster reaction time to urgent CRQC threats. >>=20 >> Practically, this can be achieved by bundling the expected EC-disabling >> softfork with the softfork that introduces the new output type, but >> giving the disabling one a separate, and very long or infinite, >> activation window. This means that in addition to expecting the future >> ecosystem to decide when Q-day is too close, the hashrate majority is >> allowed to make that call too. (suggested offline by Sjors Provoost) >>=20 [...] --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 3BB9E83D-086E-4F6A-BE15-677D8589EA1E%40sprovoost.nl.