From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [Pre-BIP Discussion] Bitcoin Node Repository Consensus-Policy Separation
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2025 15:59:06 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <5b81ebfc-7e9e-4e6b-908a-dc538d032908n@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <9d9073fe-1e1f-4325-bee9-1fbd6cca81f7n@googlegroups.com>
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Hi Juan,
Confirming you that libbitcoinkernel is mature enough to hack on it.
Completely split out the mempool from the validation engine on
bitcoinbackbone.org.
```
block-daemon:
cargo build --bin block_relayd
cp target/debug/block_relayd block_relayd
addr-daemon:
cargo build --bin addr_relayd
cp target/debug/addr_relayd addr_relayd
tx-daemon:
cargo build --bin tx_relayd
cp target/debug/tx_relayd tx_relayd
topo-daemon:
cargo build --bin topo_mngrd
cp target/debug/topo_mngrd topo_relayd
mempool-daemon:
cargo build --bin mempool_mngrd
cp target/debug/mempool_mngrd mempool_mngrd
txcontroller-daemon:
cargo build --bin tx_controllerd
cp target/debug/tx_controllerd tx_controllerd
backbone-cli:
rm -f backbone-cli
cargo build --bin backbone-cli
cp target/debug/backbone-cli backbone-cli
```
Now I can be the Staline of my own relay policy, and I'm very happy with
that.
Define "power" seriously, I read almost the integrality of Michel Foucault,
and I don't get you.
Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: 3f4d81c217237a38d5f47457d51c9e6990068e47
Le vendredi 31 octobre 2025 à 19:14:30 UTC, Juan Aleman a écrit :
> Greg I actually agree there should be no "official" anything. That is why
> I purposefully always use "quotes" around it.
>
> Unfortunately for both of us, this is not a reflection of reality.
> "Official Bitcoin Core" has become itself the power grab.
>
> My proposal is about bringing this to the forefront. Most discussions I
> see revolve around who can win an argument. All these are distractions IMO,
> the issue here IS with the structure we have "trusted" for so many years is
> no longer viable.
>
> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 2:48:48 PM UTC-4 Greg Maxwell wrote:
>
>> Other people don't do what you want because they believe it would harm
>> Bitcoin and they have no interest in spending their efforts trying to harm
>> something they love just to satisfy other people who disagree with them.
>> Maybe they are wrong, but fortunately you have the freedom to go your own
>> way. There is no 'official' anything. Continuing to try to coerce others
>> to do what you want when they think it would be wrong and harmful is a bad
>> choice which will make enemies out of people who otherwise would be
>> indifferent to your efforts that they regard as misguided.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:41 PM Juan Aleman <bitco...@juanaleman.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Greg, thanks for your feedback. I am already starting to do
>>> something
>>> <https://github.com/jotapea/bitcoin/commit/97d61c4b8eb0c044b06e1a8d5f280b17a6d7b5aa>,
>>> but the main point IS about the centralization risks of the "official"
>>> repo...
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-4 Greg Maxwell wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you want that and think it would be valuable, feel free to create
>>>> it. No one will stop you and you don't need anyone's permission.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:20 PM Juan Aleman <bitco...@juanaleman.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello bitcoin developers,
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Juan Alemán, and this is my first post to the mailing list.
>>>>> But I've been involved with Bitcoin since 2017. First only as a hard money
>>>>> investor, but later also as a developer, specially fascinated by this
>>>>> permanent medium. I hope this proposal can be appreciated by all
>>>>> perspectives as a pragmatic (maybe unorthodox, but timely) solution to move
>>>>> forward in agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> The changes in v30 defaults got my attention (similar to many of you),
>>>>> as they are completely opposite to what has historically been "standard"
>>>>> practice. A highly controversial change that surfaces the influence over
>>>>> default policy in the network, escalating to the point of a fork
>>>>> proposal <https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017>.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it must be reminded that a fork should be unnecessary if
>>>>> defaults are simply reverted
>>>>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33682>, while still allowing
>>>>> all policy possibilities.
>>>>>
>>>>> After my second PR <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33690>
>>>>> attempt was (also) closed (and I was blocked from the repo), I realized
>>>>> that the main issue here is social-political, not technical. It's about the
>>>>> powerful influence the "Official Reference Implementation" centralized node
>>>>> software repository has.
>>>>>
>>>>> This needs a different kind of solution. I'd like to propose a
>>>>> high-level structural change to the "Official Bitcoin Repository":
>>>>> Separating consensus code from policy-based node distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Problem Statement:*
>>>>>
>>>>> The "official" Bitcoin Core node repository (
>>>>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin) maintains consensus code while
>>>>> also defining default relay and mining policies, among all other node
>>>>> functionalities, in a single piece of software. This concentration of
>>>>> responsibilities leads to elevating this single repository to a "pedestal",
>>>>> thus a point of centralization, giving a few too much influence.
>>>>>
>>>>> This kind of influence can be considered "harm" when abrupt default
>>>>> policy changes (like v30's shift toward permissive data carrying) disrupt
>>>>> "standard" network practices and its users.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the v30 release itself may have caused a point of no return,
>>>>> where "globally agreed standardness" is no longer a realistic expectation.
>>>>> Bitcoin's hidden limits are being revealed.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Proposal:*
>>>>>
>>>>> To address humans' flaws, I suggest reorganizing the repository
>>>>> structure to better safeguard against unwarranted political (policy)
>>>>> influence.
>>>>>
>>>>> *1. Rename and Refocus Core Repo:*
>>>>>
>>>>> Rename (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin to bitcoin/bitcoin-core. This
>>>>> repo would focus mainly on consensus rules, removing arbitrary or
>>>>> non-critical policies from its scope. It becomes a neutral base for ALL
>>>>> node implementations, emphasizing on hardening and testing consensus
>>>>> without policy distractions.
>>>>>
>>>>> *2. Introduce Node Client Repo(s):*
>>>>>
>>>>> Create a separate repository for the full-featured node client,
>>>>> starting with (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin-node as the foundational
>>>>> template. This would effectively serve as the direct replacement for the
>>>>> current bitcoin/bitcoin node software. This repository embeds the
>>>>> consensus-focused bitcoin-core (objective), while including "current core
>>>>> devs"-recommended default policies (subjective). Other clients would use
>>>>> this as their foundation, to customize policy and beyond. (Also, there is
>>>>> nothing preventing multiple bitcoin-node-<type> existing in parallel, best
>>>>> addressing default-bias concerns.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The initial implementation of this separation might not be elegant,
>>>>> but future releases can progressively refactor based on this new
>>>>> reorganization, potentially incorporating more modularity (where
>>>>> beneficial).
>>>>>
>>>>> For a smooth transition that resolves ongoing tensions, the suggested
>>>>> first release of bitcoin/bitcoin-node should revert to pre-v30 defaults.
>>>>> Then, a subsequent release could adopt v30 defaults, with the home README
>>>>> clearly documenting options/alternatives (e.g. "For legacy Money-First
>>>>> policies, use X").
>>>>>
>>>>> *(But STILL the simplest solution is just to allow something like this
>>>>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33682>. And let's just move on!
>>>>> Open-Data is out of the bag anyway.)*
>>>>>
>>>>> This proposal attempts to find a compromise where no side feels
>>>>> "forced to comply", and represents a more neutral position from the
>>>>> "Official Reference Implementation" repository in this new era.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Benefits:*
>>>>>
>>>>> - Bitcoin-Core reaches its epitome, focusing on a hardened
>>>>> consensus core that serves all clients, regardless of policy.
>>>>> - Reduction of the "official" repo's influence on default policy,
>>>>> better aligning with Bitcoin's decentralization principles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Drawbacks:*
>>>>>
>>>>> - Breaks existing infrastructure tied to github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.
>>>>> However, bitcoin/bitcoin-node is a 1-to-1 replacement, mitigating deep
>>>>> disruptions (which some will see as a benefit, forcing a conscious choice
>>>>> about what node software to run moving forward).
>>>>> - Also, there must be caution of not using the original
>>>>> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin name for anything else, as that would
>>>>> break automatic GitHub url redirects.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your time. This is just an idea I wanted to share for
>>>>> discussion, and I would appreciate any thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Juan
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/d397e2e1-3d5b-473a-b915-aca2cfc9da32n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/d397e2e1-3d5b-473a-b915-aca2cfc9da32n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/55b43fac-0794-45cb-86d7-535d965f3a74n%40googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/55b43fac-0794-45cb-86d7-535d965f3a74n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-11-01 0:09 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 12+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-10-31 17:54 Juan Aleman
2025-10-31 18:21 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-10-31 18:32 ` Juan Aleman
2025-10-31 18:47 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-10-31 18:56 ` Juan Aleman
2025-10-31 22:59 ` Antoine Riard [this message]
2025-11-01 15:59 ` Juan Aleman
2025-11-01 17:54 ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-02 20:04 ` Antoine Riard
2025-11-02 20:43 ` Juan Aleman
2025-10-31 18:36 ` Matt Corallo
2025-10-31 18:51 ` Juan Aleman
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