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Wed, 25 Feb 2026 14:39:02 +0000 From: Bob Burnett To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update Thread-Index: AQHcms837EUZWHy6H0C6qn86/JNAALWBNGOAgAS2BQCAAPtVgIAJzkEAgALX9gI= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2026 14:39:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b7a9377n@googlegroups.com> <57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65b6b61cf8a2@app.fastmail.com> <4b02a925-663f-423f-8905-0fc1b528581fn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4b02a925-663f-423f-8905-0fc1b528581fn@googlegroups.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-reactions: allow x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR03MB5171:EE_|BY5PR03MB5156:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 469177a2-3a7c-4abe-4497-08de747b9e7d x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|4022899009|366016|1800799024|376014|8096899003|13003099007|7053199007|38070700021; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR03MB51717E25CEB9444CF2463E0C9675ABY5PR03MB5171namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: barefootmining.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 469177a2-3a7c-4abe-4497-08de747b9e7d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Feb 2026 14:39:02.0842 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: ddddd300-8706-4e9f-911b-5396c2549018 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: I06dcR7juHlHE0cHIRQZmDl8mAu/3rntx4SeA+qtHmDVFN8ofasBUJvxPT3GC2pFEKCAS5XXPKMS1wlCkW+CQS7q65MbcxVP++M8iPFgGdE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR03MB5156 X-Original-Sender: bob.burnett@barefootmining.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@barefootmining.com header.s=selector1 header.b="m1zn/13x"; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=barefootmining.com dkim=pass dkdomain=barefootmining.com dmarc=pass fromdomain=barefootmining.com); spf=pass (google.com: domain of bob.burnett@barefootmining.com designates 2a01:111:f403:c107::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob.burnett@barefootmining.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --_000_BY5PR03MB51717E25CEB9444CF2463E0C9675ABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1 BTC might actually make sense and not be so arbitrary=E2=80=94as it wi= ll be an easy number for people to track and understand what coins they can= move or are moving at any given time. I very much agree that keeping things easy for people should be a high prio= rity. As opposed to a % of the block reward or subsidy, one suggestion is = to use something like the halving we use for the subsidy. Start with a max= imum of 1 or 2 BTC per block and reduce the amount by half on the same 210,= 000 block schedule as the subsidy halving. People seem to get that concept= well and I think it would work here too. Alternatively, we could use the = same schedule but do doubling. Start with a very small number like 1M Sats= and then build to a bigger number in the future. This takes away the ince= ntive for an early attacker and means the bigger prizes for the quantum att= ackers would come in a period when there is massive competition from the qu= antum world and much more economic uncertainty for an individual quantum at= tacker. I must admit that this does create a bit of quandary regarding property rig= hts and that does bother me, but if the decision is to do something to slow= down the attackers this, does seem like a reasonable approach. Also, by s= preading this out over several decades and restricting block space access, = it means that there will likely be numerous quantum attackers, and they wil= l be competing with each other not only for the private keys but also for t= he prized spot in each block (good news for fees). From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com on behalf o= f Isabel Foxen Duke Date: Monday, February 23, 2026 at 1:51=E2=80=AFPM To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update > [1 BTC] can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are = based on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus.= Which means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then= P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. I don't mind this idea =E2=80=94 however, I worry it could add complexity f= rom a user experience perspective. 1 BTC might actually make sense and not = be so arbitrary=E2=80=94as it will be an easy number for people to track an= d understand what coins they can move or are moving at any given time. Hype= r-simplicity has UX and comms benefits. -Isabel On Tuesday, February 17, 2026 at 9:11:45=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4 Garlo Nicon wrote= : > My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary. > Hourglass V2 further restricts the output amount to a maximum of 1 bitcoi= n per block, or roughly 144 bitcoin per day. This is far less than the 450 = coins per day introduced by the current block reward subsidy, and should ef= fectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum attacks on P2PK coins. It can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are based on= the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Which m= eans, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs c= an be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. It would st= ill be arbitrary, but it would be more aligned with the explanation from th= e BIP, that it is all about how many coins are introduced into circulation,= or assigned to miners. Or, if it would be based only on the basic block reward, without fees, then= when all coins will be mined, P2PKs will automatically expire, because the= re won't be any amount, which is less than zero satoshis. Because things ca= n be based on fees, but then, a large miner with many coins, could game the= system, and turn some of his own coins into fees, only to unlock more P2PK= coins. pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:11 Jameson Lopp napisa=C5=82(a= ): Bitcoin is ultimately a system of rules that are enforced by those who use = the system and hold the keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a sufficiently lar= ge cohort of economic power within the system is interested in protecting i= tself against massive liquidation events from malicious actors who arguably= are not the rightful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are in place for them= to do something about it. I like Hourglass V2 a lot more than V1. My primary complaint is that 1 BTC = per block is somewhat arbitrary. It would be interesting to point to the on= -chain statistics of what P2PK UTXO spend volume we have seen in recent yea= rs. Additionally, in the context of my own migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could be= complementary to the concept of offering a ZK quantum safe spending option= for folks who fail to migrate UTXOs to quantum safe scripts before a set d= eadline, given that these old P2PK outputs do not belong to HD wallets and = thus the owners would be incapable of constructing a ZK proof of HD wallet = ownership. On Fri, Feb 13, 2026 at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light wrote: Bitcoin should not have an in-protocol plunge protection mechanism, and cer= tainly not one that artificially restricts people's ability to spend their = coins. I encourage you to withdraw this proposal, for the sake of bitcoin's= integrity and utility as a p2p electronic cash system. On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote: > In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further > limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block. > https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.me= diawiki > > Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal: > https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ > > Thoughts & feedback welcome! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a846= 2b7a9377n%40googlegroups.com > . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65b6b61cf8a2%40app.fastmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CADL_X_eb8byZs3VKORoUzaPoBvguSbxJ%3DKyKifsQFWFqyqHeRA%40mail.gmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 4b02a925-663f-423f-8905-0fc1b528581fn%40googlegroups.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= BY5PR03MB51717E25CEB9444CF2463E0C9675A%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outloo= k.com. --_000_BY5PR03MB51717E25CEB9444CF2463E0C9675ABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  1 BTC might actually make sense and not be so arbitrary=E2=80=94= as it will be an easy number for people to track and understand what coins = they can move or are moving at any given time.

I very = much agree that keeping things easy for people should be a high priority. &= nbsp;As opposed to a % of the block reward or subsidy, one suggestion is to= use something like the halving we use for the subsidy.  Start with a maximum of 1 or 2 BTC per block and re= duce the amount by half on the same 210,000 block schedule as the subsidy h= alving.  People seem to get that concept well and I think it would wor= k here too.  Alternatively, we could use the same schedule but do doubling.  Start with a very small number like 1= M Sats and then build to a bigger number in the future.  This takes aw= ay the incentive for an early attacker and means the bigger prizes for the = quantum attackers would come in a period when there is massive competition from the quantum world and much more economic= uncertainty for an individual quantum attacker.

I must = admit that this does create a bit of quandary regarding property rights and= that does bother me, but if the decision is to do something to slow down t= he attackers this, does seem like a reasonable approach.  Also, by spreading this out over several deca= des and restricting block space access, it means that there will likely be = numerous quantum attackers, and they will be competing with each other not = only for the private keys but also for the prized spot in each block (good news for fees).  


From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on beha= lf of Isabel Foxen Duke <isabel.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 23, 2026 at 1:51=E2=80=AFPM
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com= >
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update

>  = [1 BTC] can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are bas= ed on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Wh= ich means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase= , and not more than that.

I don't mind this idea =E2=80=94 however, I worry it could add complexity f= rom a user experience perspective. 1 BTC might actually make sense and not = be so arbitrary=E2=80=94as it will be an easy number for people to track an= d understand what coins they can move or are moving at any given time. Hyper-simplicity has UX and comms benefits. &= nbsp;    

-Isabel

On Tuesday, February 17= , 2026 at 9:11:45=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4 Garlo Nicon wrote:
> My primary compla= int is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary.

> Hourglass V2 furt= her restricts the output amount to a maximum of 1 bitcoin per block, or rou= ghly 144 bitcoin per day. This is far less than the 450 coins per day intro= duced by the current block reward subsidy, and should effectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum attacks on P= 2PK coins.

It can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are based on= the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Which m= eans, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs c= an be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. It would still be arbitrary, but it would be more = aligned with the explanation from the BIP, that it is all about how many co= ins are introduced into circulation, or assigned to miners.

Or, if it would be based only on the basic block reward, without fees, then= when all coins will be mined, P2PKs will automatically expire, because the= re won't be any amount, which is less than zero satoshis. Because things ca= n be based on fees, but then, a large miner with many coins, could game the system, and turn some of = his own coins into fees, only to unlock more P2PK coins.

pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:= 11 Jameson Lopp <jameso...@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
Bitcoin is ultimately = a system of rules that are enforced by those who use the system and hold th= e keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a sufficiently large cohort of economic = power within the system is interested in protecting itself against massive liquidation events from malicious act= ors who arguably are not the rightful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are i= n place for them to do something about it.

I like Hourglass V2 a = lot more than V1. My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat = arbitrary. It would be interesting to point to the on-chain statistics of w= hat P2PK UTXO spend volume we have seen in recent years.

Additionally, in the context of my own migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could be= complementary to the concept of offering a ZK quantum safe spending option= for folks who fail to migrate UTXOs to quantum safe scripts before a set d= eadline, given that these old P2PK outputs do not belong to HD wallets and thus the owners would be incapable= of constructing a ZK proof of HD wallet ownership.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2026 at= 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light <bitco...@lightco.in> wrote:
Bitcoin should not have an in-protocol plunge pr= otection mechanism, and certainly not one that artificially restricts peopl= e's ability to spend their coins. I encourage you to withdraw this proposal= , for the sake of bitcoin's integrity and utility as a p2p electronic cash system.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote:
> In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further<= br> > limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block.
> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.medi= awiki
>
> Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal:
> https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ
>
> Thoughts & feedback welcome!
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b= 7a9377n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.googl= e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b7a9377n%40googlegrou= ps.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>.

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