From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:42 -0700 Received: from mail-oi1-f190.google.com ([209.85.167.190]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1v9Bef-0004G2-IS for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:42 -0700 Received: by mail-oi1-f190.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-441bc9f10b0sf270386b6e.1 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1760573735; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=RcAYdx2CWdMZXRdwsHsJD3rgsmdURwC+fMyMSX3x6U/xH+BlGg5CVEdjcUQ+kR6it3 n9g+V6bciqTe1Igc4DUOUgCOIBLOSVPmj8gmJplPsYPjETQf7CjsPZS0HKiZyEr7yZ9k oWgEE7bSvztkjqoYNEXmgNme11ccbY3zIhZ50fT/nfT2QHaOJuDIOOixlnmzzjGjkHiD TmamecbCU/7/40noOCFZIKNJN9NV17s5YlXDOs0RclTtkfZxOJMh/09yIN8OQ79sckGe EhingmKndF/qqo/W984xMqBjI8bPgmy0jCPzCccdad3CwkBoPCOXrDyroPw3l9NvRSVd 8TEQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender:dkim-signature :dkim-signature; bh=Gn++4JKD+jtZV1QTDZVr5eL2FrVSmH9xG++x19MI79I=; fh=dWOOvp2x6lu1DLXsjMnCotPAEJgBX8Adkx6+QwM3mfk=; b=DMPfXXzG3R/eGTJyD/gCweXHFy1eskAoGsaPPZxyfWsrgZbm3qCP153hSeXNq1sIEe aP4feStShK+6pfyA8h5z1T2i4a2b5xpy29p3Ejcj4uU+dE2av6nBYMr1twzD8zXxKB9k 7+jvzV2kZzKoQScyo5qGRJ2N9CEhRe9tLOC9yBKx9vB3j3zb5N9mahpNJwoqF1/fP8It BPy6OPgkBmjunvUZOG7TntamYM3HUw7bL++q8lLHFMjbgsIkFQE0nd9xcWFgf5Jbjh9N BMIIBL8oVTk9MUt/l0sw4ubyjIMgqj6TSDyehO/7p7z1JW73xvwa+Gr2QDhcvSn4vBvh Snew==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=UCphZFiG; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1760573735; x=1761178535; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Gn++4JKD+jtZV1QTDZVr5eL2FrVSmH9xG++x19MI79I=; b=IR0/329XZSBdv6PnR+5sC1bKGpu9HKPuMwxmN+obQIhLU0CT/VCj3lGnzlHjMplPBp dB9KL9S3D1s++HA5DQ549IYRZ2LSHeGXjA0FL9zJtlF+4hAmsFMP7Z2VxBVmNxeo6WlM 11vvuUWMiAykjvox0UaIEgH9egjQMMj3kOpTSlEC+VmC6/OJpP09SMfmks/rhSLOj+U/ TjqdYlrh8f2tI0beA68F8EDMs6j5zRUZ2jRr/Hal72vCX2O1quOaNCAd8byCdTjIbjMA wMpIMVFFktmawcI5IBfywlHwJGyjpmAk9HSxKsbmgPa5s+4vUe5f9yF9dGhk5HMb/J/w LSag== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1760573735; x=1761178535; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Gn++4JKD+jtZV1QTDZVr5eL2FrVSmH9xG++x19MI79I=; b=Lo2ZJyNj3Ci7NT1pdf3vhpN2jn9oFEJtA4jOEQt3tl9bFFvB/JBDYftHpSJmMdSoiB cVKLnn1dSxhHkFkAbe4mWVHgQBNgto7KKlG3b8wQ72B9sIva2PbNmmv7ul0tDrfvUnTj ZMFAX9/xXw5tk6Fo64URuqQd+jzvIW/grlBYgl7ozEx8nUTuCxerPkmRJ/7eu8Izskb4 Ff4TaJ6M5ELXfQt2VLN/W5p8VR801B+0Ez8fK+Ey3YYkQRKbXfxy5ey0V8/GkN+h2LNJ qM8ejQNDV0MF/gImqiHvNM1HR/Weq1jqC06//2HNFGl/On6Lz+gVRRlCikPKgTRh8VSK xfEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1760573735; x=1761178535; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Gn++4JKD+jtZV1QTDZVr5eL2FrVSmH9xG++x19MI79I=; b=ZfPKHutbbSpw5xl2T09fiPQPvh+h7ZCi1SQGxhweLPy+CnEU7iN4iFG+/r1RDLbyFk 7knz3z10XMy0R+eUqvlYM3Mcvo9Sw2QImVTGcvPJ+3YfNjqGTt6S+lY686/CoAgV8hvk 7zpVvzc8FODiN8xTYsIXlrH/E+Va26We8WyYXKW8fx/SaJoKGw4j1cHEkZfRxvI6A6rH UCHvt55yjq+b8JTSL58Gd7uawQmnhdbwmmqITvYF1MqugmH7JjcvK8e9ZAb7mDdylmVl ZszrZG6yyevAIGlfcNGwLCNB/0aI2dTtzbjIRV4kEky9JcAdbD+aY3AWOeENPBiRPCY1 TdDw== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCW5XB7AdETe3bSeZTdc9lngoGsCr1oxt5F1O6uzDaKRyI0PKF5C8htdCFpY64k2DeJ5hFUYVqB2AkwT@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzRLKcHhfxmRe/uY8OY3TpmB2SZtoPLasQNuV6EmkMM6hZwWPo4 fLSbu29lnLojT9SdXLyfb2nr0Y3L3w7JL4bI5oRLjPxHhhxqz+BTY/D1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IER0BvsDIl2wVZ2yGn5oR0ddTaKdqbao0usDgVVU1SzF2akrUHUVh30HdA21eGaHGRSoxfAIA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1388:b0:43f:5861:5132 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4417b44535fmr13583989b6e.40.1760573735224; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h="ARHlJd6Dl56f0RiBetIIJIonforPDxCphH3lrCQQbaU1qItidQ==" Received: by 2002:a05:6820:628:b0:637:2751:97bc with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-651beb82670ls78117eaf.1.-pod-prod-05-us; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:4f22:b0:441:8f74:f1e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4418f74203bmr12888091b6e.56.1760573731366; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:a89:b0:43f:5b9f:a4a0 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-441f0e97acdmsb6e; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:06:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:c015:10b0:441:d465:7474 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-441d46586a0mr5178494b6e.33.1760573213561; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1760573213; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=BiuTIydTmmM7jBJ7VL/b1knWWgbRqxylTX/S4v4nlzyI8kqX4KcmvAUDkRIua58Htr MK5mi1nOlhMjLC30Sj6CjfiC9XpQwYjoXw00k6zhfCTitUBiXoWv4h6p0NozXepvms1n ZKoPfX9b0XBEycODoY+Mksf8t8wWMe7bACxWwR7/bq8zfNrc52zNtXUmUdU8QYocOFIV 6NoxIZuDwDWDd/T+2PVvSNZIhq16F5f416Kp+uaaDlQ68YbnB3OXLXkIHX5wFdUfwPll 4GYj4u/+8E4SE4OKeBbl9msJCIZwKk6t6W+CDHgYwBuTJeuCYiOqRlGBQ+fczqzlzH7I S6tA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=cOHSnR8FkXnF8EXsvBgmDTwa1VgZ1oUAiOYAlkHLV2A=; fh=EHG+wfC81rKJ7O/Xp4hEbccFRBUqqkhLu2y/Bi+vnls=; b=VKBXyFb87WUGnJuWekHldE/ULVhfa5Agoh40a3WebxgRwEMFkQcOKqX7fywgHRXPiO LjL+zdf/gMSYHcgEWq/VarsOslBmw96lKomei1I9vnc/kpG/OZrBjJO4IxMkrUTIPVys e0FAJFGUF95nSS7nTdiGHbvaHRjxza07dPtOFayGZfZprch9ByjYJsASkrzAw4Av3p3H yNI0kscxfyWs/A2/0Ti7co2xxUcNhQIglU+puEf1zwTBUAwJzLiZ0DJyAlvoGWC6jGKl JP65SuuHiCzLLNyFXG60S3W5P4XRdWqBytyD9ioByRhHplNDbYsR41jbA2N44gp9NthB 1Guw==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=UCphZFiG; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 006d021491bc7-6502d18c761si932248eaf.0.2025.10.15.17.06.53 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a; Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-27eceb38eb1so1592525ad.3 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuOahnozn9/crZbDJnvJvdz7uk9cosoIRr9z08NZxFaaDQ2sLxjl8W0dCirN4Q kWBsTAyPtG6n+oO8oEY68jCteMsivGh+qYiATmbYyHKUQYd8FQ0ioVkUF926qNm2Z8AC/AA0Bmb IfP7mH9WMKKATcnO+iuZF2UWlzqu9L2ddbLB2GYqNvh3wbRximn+wFedu+ovaam1Gz6eo834BQv x7VgKnUcvUIariUlAuBIQTRi8kmMoTdPL0kUwMfE2AnrJNjlSmn+i+RDSHlCXly9UugudSVK13R ESYOYw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e94e:b0:270:4aa8:2dcc with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2902737c5e9mr369501415ad.19.1760573212735; Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:06:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6f6b570f-7f9d-40c0-a771-378eb2c0c701n@googlegroups.com> <961e3c3a-a627-4a07-ae81-eb01f7a375a1n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <961e3c3a-a627-4a07-ae81-eb01f7a375a1n@googlegroups.com> From: Greg Maxwell Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 00:06:41 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWAKvqmAX2OD0XOFvx-ICUvdsKUzg6NEQsMfaqmLt63ynL0N4JE-liuyjAQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: [BIP Proposal] Limit ScriptPubkey Size >= 520 Bytes Consensus. To: Casey Rodarmor Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f23c8206413b64d9" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=UCphZFiG; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000f23c8206413b64d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That concern is why the annex exists, I believe. But taproot aside, that is a point. But also given that there are essentially no violations and no reason to expect any I'm not sure the proposal is worth time relative to fixes of actual moderately serious DOS attack issues. I guess a fair point is that given the ongoing progress towards consensus rules being the boundary of what gets mined, it would be nice to prevent big outputs that would bloat the utxo set. OTOH any output over 10k is already pruned in implementations (as spending it is consensus invalid), so the gap here is really just between 520 and 10k. But even if jumbo outputs were being created today I think they'd still be a less pressing issue than several of the other consensus cleanup issues. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:45=E2=80=AFPM Casey Rodarmor wrote: > I think that "Bitcoin could need it in the future?" might be a good enoug= h > reason not to do this. > > Script pubkeys are the only variable-length transaction fields which can = be > covered by input signatures, which might make them useful for future soft > forks. I can imagine confidential asset schemes or post-quantum coin > recovery > schemes requiring large proofs in the outputs, where the validity of the > proof > determined whether or not the transaction is valid, and thus require the > proofs to be in the outputs, and not just a hash commitment. > On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 2:59:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7 PortlandHODL wro= te: > >> Proposing: Softfork to after (n) block height; the creation of outpoints >> with greater than 520 bytes in the ScriptPubkey would be consensus inval= id. >> >> This is my gathering of information per BIP 0002 >> >> After doing some research into the number of outpoints that would have >> violated the proposed rule there are exactly 169 outpoints. With only 8 >> being non OP_RETURN. I think after 15 years and not having discovered us= e >> for 'large' ScriptPubkeys; the reward for not invalidating them at the >> consensus level is lower than the risk of their abuse. >> >> - >> *Reasons for * >> - Makes DoS blocks likely impossible to create that would have any >> sufficient negative impact on the network. >> - Leaves enough room for hooks long term >> - Would substantially reduce the divergence between consensus and >> relay policy >> - Incredibly little use onchain as evidenced above. >> - Could possibly reduce codebase complexity. Legacy Script is >> largely considered a mess though this isn't a complete disablement= it >> should reduce the total surface that is problematic. >> - Would make it harder to use the ScriptPubkey as a 'large' >> datacarrier. >> - Possible UTXO set size bloat reduction. >> >> - *Reasons Against * >> - Bitcoin could need it in the future? Quantum? >> - Users could just create more outpoints. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> source of onchain data >> >> >> PortlandHODL >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/961e3c3a-a627-4a07-ae81-eb01= f7a375a1n%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAS2fgQG%3DMT7MM-_LdWWepxisci1i%2B7TprBq0EH2PQ4mAs73Ew%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000f23c8206413b64d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That concern is why the annex exists, I believe.=C2= =A0 But taproot aside, that is a point.

But also given that t= here are essentially no violations and no reason to expect any I'm not = sure the proposal is worth time relative to fixes of actual moderately seri= ous DOS attack issues.

I guess a fair point is tha= t given the ongoing progress towards consensus rules being the boundary=C2= =A0of what gets mined, it would be nice to prevent big outputs that would b= loat the=C2=A0utxo set.=C2=A0 OTOH any output over 10k is already pruned in= implementations (as spending it is consensus=C2=A0invalid), so the gap her= e is really just between 520 and 10k.

But even if = jumbo outputs were being created today I think they'd still be a less p= ressing issue than several of the other=C2=A0consensus cleanup issues.



On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 a= t 11:45=E2=80=AFPM Casey Rodarmor <casey@rodarmor.com> wrote:
I think that "Bitcoin could need it in the future?&= quot; might be a good enough
reason not to do this.

Script pubkey= s are the only variable-length transaction fields which can be
covered b= y input signatures, which might make them useful for future soft
forks. = I can imagine confidential asset schemes or post-quantum coin recovery
s= chemes requiring large proofs in the outputs, where the validity of the pro= of
determined whether or not the transaction is valid, and thus require = the
proofs to be in the outputs, and not just a hash commitment.
On Thursday, = October 2, 2025 at 2:59:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7 PortlandHODL wrote:
Proposing: Softfork to afte= r (n) block height; the creation of outpoints with greater than 520 bytes i= n the ScriptPubkey would be consensus invalid.

This is my gathering= of information per BIP 0002

After doing some research into the numb= er of outpoints that would have violated the proposed rule there are exactl= y 169 outpoints. With only 8 being non OP_RETURN. I think after 15 years an= d not having discovered use for 'large' ScriptPubkeys; the reward f= or not invalidating them at the consensus level is lower than the risk of t= heir abuse.=C2=A0
  • Reasons for
    • Makes DoS blocks= likely impossible to create that would have any sufficient negative impact= on the network.
    • Leaves enough room for hooks long term
      • Would substantially reduce the divergence between consensus=C2=A0 and rela= y policy
    • Incredibly little use onchain as evidenced above.
    • = Could possibly reduce codebase complexity. Legacy Script is largely conside= red a mess though this isn't a complete disablement it should reduce th= e total surface that is problematic.
    • Would make it harder to use th= e ScriptPubkey as a 'large' datacarrier.
    • Possible UTXO set = size bloat reduction.

  • Reasons Against=C2=A0
    • Bitcoin could need it in the future? Quantum?
    • Users co= uld just create more outpoints.
Thoughts?

source of onchain data=C2=A0

PortlandHODL

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.googl= e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/961e3c3a-a627-4a07-ae81-eb01f7a375a1n%40googlegrou= ps.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/= d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgQG%3DMT7MM-_LdWWepxisci1i%2B7TprBq0EH2PQ4mAs73Ew%= 40mail.gmail.com.
--000000000000f23c8206413b64d9--