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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6a1803df08f44-880363523easi1781406d6.8.2025.10.31.11.47.48 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Oct 2025 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::434 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::434; Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7a26b9a936aso1978822b3a.0 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2025 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvaz6nH/z6BhoOLII4JYAuJJo8LWg8pk3DGqxlD8JOdaKckJuLXbQgIcsTWLZz P7pHHDVI7tV0+S2fHYAI73NXhCocE3Xg2ITmLpKFzTQTEZtNaOyFjFO0I8n1ni3rUC5vNcLA7ae 0B+mSa5yHmnGs9XuwWnyRTH/j7USs9Mm0tugy1wtsnJ/IAkb+vf2meXInZTVvRgtiQiXnkOnPaa ZTlnThFmBfJxbKKBJNtagqqwdLbEyxcH7yAbIIVmHwTG4y0uhAR/KgP5mK1of8n+5ABTRLEHirb c+o0rsWkMJ7oF3mjGQAK29oN0anGZu16/sORfv7cOHRMqRPwAYM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:1547:b0:295:187:ce21 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2951a4cbdccmr57057735ad.42.1761936467668; Fri, 31 Oct 2025 11:47:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55b43fac-0794-45cb-86d7-535d965f3a74n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <55b43fac-0794-45cb-86d7-535d965f3a74n@googlegroups.com> From: Greg Maxwell Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2025 18:47:36 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bmR3DVvCWwpxxu33N8TJ7t8kotY4ZxUuukM8e7DklsMGs64p7s78HSn6RE Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [Pre-BIP Discussion] Bitcoin Node Repository Consensus-Policy Separation To: Juan Aleman Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000045b3a6064278cd97" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=WljhuSbY; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::434 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000045b3a6064278cd97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Other people don't do what you want because they believe it would harm Bitcoin and they have no interest in spending their efforts trying to harm something they love just to satisfy other people who disagree with them. Maybe they are wrong, but fortunately you have the freedom to go your own way. There is no 'official' anything. Continuing to try to coerce others to do what you want when they think it would be wrong and harmful is a bad choice which will make enemies out of people who otherwise would be indifferent to your efforts that they regard as misguided. On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:41=E2=80=AFPM Juan Aleman wrote: > Hello Greg, thanks for your feedback. I am already starting to do > something > , > but the main point IS about the centralization risks of the "official" > repo... > > On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 2:24:36=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Greg Maxwell wrot= e: > >> If you want that and think it would be valuable, feel free to create it. >> No one will stop you and you don't need anyone's permission. >> >> On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:20=E2=80=AFPM Juan Aleman >> wrote: >> >>> Hello bitcoin developers, >>> >>> My name is Juan Alem=C3=A1n, and this is my first post to the mailing l= ist. >>> But I've been involved with Bitcoin since 2017. First only as a hard mo= ney >>> investor, but later also as a developer, specially fascinated by this >>> permanent medium. I hope this proposal can be appreciated by all >>> perspectives as a pragmatic (maybe unorthodox, but timely) solution to = move >>> forward in agreement. >>> >>> The changes in v30 defaults got my attention (similar to many of you), >>> as they are completely opposite to what has historically been "standard= " >>> practice. A highly controversial change that surfaces the influence ove= r >>> default policy in the network, escalating to the point of a fork >>> proposal . >>> >>> First, it must be reminded that a fork should be unnecessary if default= s >>> are simply reverted , >>> while still allowing all policy possibilities. >>> >>> After my second PR >>> attempt was (also) closed (and I was blocked from the repo), I realized >>> that the main issue here is social-political, not technical. It's about= the >>> powerful influence the "Official Reference Implementation" centralized = node >>> software repository has. >>> >>> This needs a different kind of solution. I'd like to propose a >>> high-level structural change to the "Official Bitcoin Repository": >>> Separating consensus code from policy-based node distribution. >>> >>> *Problem Statement:* >>> >>> The "official" Bitcoin Core node repository ( >>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin) maintains consensus code while also >>> defining default relay and mining policies, among all other node >>> functionalities, in a single piece of software. This concentration of >>> responsibilities leads to elevating this single repository to a "pedest= al", >>> thus a point of centralization, giving a few too much influence. >>> >>> This kind of influence can be considered "harm" when abrupt default >>> policy changes (like v30's shift toward permissive data carrying) disru= pt >>> "standard" network practices and its users. >>> >>> However, the v30 release itself may have caused a point of no return, >>> where "globally agreed standardness" is no longer a realistic expectati= on. >>> Bitcoin's hidden limits are being revealed. >>> >>> *Proposal:* >>> >>> To address humans' flaws, I suggest reorganizing the repository >>> structure to better safeguard against unwarranted political (policy) >>> influence. >>> >>> *1. Rename and Refocus Core Repo:* >>> >>> Rename (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin to bitcoin/bitcoin-core. This >>> repo would focus mainly on consensus rules, removing arbitrary or >>> non-critical policies from its scope. It becomes a neutral base for ALL >>> node implementations, emphasizing on hardening and testing consensus >>> without policy distractions. >>> >>> *2. Introduce Node Client Repo(s):* >>> >>> Create a separate repository for the full-featured node client, >>> starting with (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin-node as the foundational >>> template. This would effectively serve as the direct replacement for th= e >>> current bitcoin/bitcoin node software. This repository embeds the >>> consensus-focused bitcoin-core (objective), while including "current co= re >>> devs"-recommended default policies (subjective). Other clients would us= e >>> this as their foundation, to customize policy and beyond. (Also, there = is >>> nothing preventing multiple bitcoin-node- existing in parallel, b= est >>> addressing default-bias concerns.) >>> >>> >>> The initial implementation of this separation might not be elegant, but >>> future releases can progressively refactor based on this new >>> reorganization, potentially incorporating more modularity (where >>> beneficial). >>> >>> For a smooth transition that resolves ongoing tensions, the suggested >>> first release of bitcoin/bitcoin-node should revert to pre-v30 defaults= . >>> Then, a subsequent release could adopt v30 defaults, with the home READ= ME >>> clearly documenting options/alternatives (e.g. "For legacy Money-First >>> policies, use X"). >>> >>> *(But STILL the simplest solution is just to allow something like this >>> . And let's just move on= ! >>> Open-Data is out of the bag anyway.)* >>> >>> This proposal attempts to find a compromise where no side feels "forced >>> to comply", and represents a more neutral position from the "Official >>> Reference Implementation" repository in this new era. >>> >>> *Benefits:* >>> >>> - Bitcoin-Core reaches its epitome, focusing on a hardened consensus >>> core that serves all clients, regardless of policy. >>> - Reduction of the "official" repo's influence on default policy, >>> better aligning with Bitcoin's decentralization principles. >>> >>> >>> *Drawbacks:* >>> >>> - Breaks existing infrastructure tied to github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin. >>> However, bitcoin/bitcoin-node is a 1-to-1 replacement, mitigating de= ep >>> disruptions (which some will see as a benefit, forcing a conscious c= hoice >>> about what node software to run moving forward). >>> - Also, there must be caution of not using the original >>> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin name for anything else, as that would >>> break automatic GitHub url redirects. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for your time. This is just an idea I wanted to share for >>> discussion, and I would appreciate any thoughts. >>> >>> Juan >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/d397e2e1-3d5b-473a-b915-ac= a2cfc9da32n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/55b43fac-0794-45cb-86d7-535d= 965f3a74n%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAS2fgQYKDHS3C%3DTuTACUoH%2B59rkfCXkqAzSd9Jev9ik%3DE5%3D1g%40mail.gmail.co= m. --00000000000045b3a6064278cd97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Other people don't do what you want because they = believe it would harm Bitcoin and they have no interest in=C2=A0spending th= eir efforts trying to harm something they love just to satisfy other people= who disagree with them.=C2=A0 Maybe they are wrong, but fortunately you ha= ve the freedom to go your own way.=C2=A0 There is no 'official' any= thing.=C2=A0 Continuing=C2=A0to try to coerce=C2=A0others to do what you wa= nt when they think it would be wrong and harmful is a bad choice which will= make enemies out of people who otherwise would be indifferent to your effo= rts that they regard as misguided.


On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:41=E2=80=AFPM Juan Aleman <bitcoindev@juanaleman.com> wrote:
Hello Greg, thanks for= your feedback. I am already starting to do something, but the main point IS about the centralization risks = of the "official" repo...

On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 2:24:36=E2= =80=AFPM UTC-4 Greg Maxwell wrote:
If you want that and=C2=A0think it= would be valuable, feel free to create it. No one will stop you and you do= n't need anyone's permission.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:20=E2=80=AFPM Juan Aleman <bitco...@juanaleman.com> wrote:
Hello bitcoin dev= elopers,

My name is Juan Alem=C3=A1n, and this is my first post to t= he mailing list. But I've been involved with Bitcoin since 2017. First = only as a hard money investor, but later also as a developer, specially fas= cinated by this permanent medium. I hope this proposal can be appreciated b= y all perspectives as a pragmatic (maybe unorthodox, but timely) solution t= o move forward in agreement.

The changes in v30 defaults got my atte= ntion (similar to many of you), as they are completely opposite to what has= historically been "standard" practice. A highly controversial ch= ange that surfaces the influence over default policy in the network, escala= ting to the point of a fork proposal.

First, it mu= st be reminded that a fork should be unnecessary if defaults are simply reverted, while still allowing all policy possibilities.=

After my second PR attempt was (also) closed = (and I was blocked from the repo), I realized that the main issue here is s= ocial-political, not technical. It's about the powerful influence the &= quot;Official Reference Implementation" centralized node software repo= sitory has.

This needs a different kind of solution. I'd like to= propose a high-level structural change to the "Official Bitcoin Repos= itory": Separating consensus code from policy-based node distribution.=

Problem Statement:

The "official" Bitcoin C= ore node repository (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin) maintai= ns consensus code while also defining default relay and mining policies, am= ong all other node functionalities, in a single piece of software. This con= centration of responsibilities leads to elevating this single repository to= a "pedestal", thus a point of centralization, giving a few too m= uch influence.

This kind of influence can be considered "harm&q= uot; when abrupt default policy changes (like v30's shift toward permis= sive data carrying) disrupt "standard" network practices and its = users.

However, the v30 release itself may have caused a point of no= return, where "globally agreed standardness" is no longer a real= istic expectation. Bitcoin's hidden limits are being revealed.

<= b>Proposal:

To address humans' flaws, I suggest reorganizing= the repository structure to better safeguard against unwarranted political= (policy) influence.

1. Rename and Refocus Core Repo:

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rename (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin to bitcoin/bit= coin-core. This repo would focus mainly on consensus rules, removing arbitr= ary or non-critical policies from its scope. It becomes a neutral base for = ALL node implementations, emphasizing on hardening and testing consensus wi= thout policy distractions.

2. Introduce Node Client Repo(s):<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Create a separate repository for the full-featured nod= e client, starting with (github.com/)bitcoin/bitcoin-node a= s the foundational template. This would effectively serve as the direct rep= lacement for the current bitcoin/bitcoin node software. This repository emb= eds the consensus-focused bitcoin-core (objective), while including "c= urrent core devs"-recommended default policies (subjective). Other cli= ents would use this as their foundation, to customize policy and beyond. (A= lso, there is nothing preventing multiple bitcoin-node-<type> existin= g in parallel, best addressing default-bias concerns.)


The initial implementation of this separation might not be ele= gant, but future releases can progressively refactor based on this new reor= ganization, potentially incorporating more modularity (where beneficial).
For a smooth transition that resolves ongoing tensions, the suggested= first release of bitcoin/bitcoin-node should revert to pre-v30 defaults. T= hen, a subsequent release could adopt v30 defaults, with the home README cl= early documenting options/alternatives (e.g. "For legacy Money-First p= olicies, use X").

(But STILL the simplest solution is just t= o allow something like this. And let's just move = on! Open-Data is out of the bag anyway.)

This proposal attempts = to find a compromise where no side feels "forced to comply", and = represents a more neutral position from the "Official Reference Implem= entation" repository in this new era.

Benefits:
    <= li>Bitcoin-Core reaches its epitome, focusing on a hardened consensus core = that serves all clients, regardless of policy.
  • Reduction of the &qu= ot;official" repo's influence on default policy, better aligning w= ith Bitcoin's decentralization principles.

Drawbacks:
  • Breaks existing infrastructure tied to github.com/bitco= in/bitcoin. However, bitcoin/bitcoin-node is a 1-to-1 replacement, miti= gating deep disruptions (which some will see as a benefit, forcing a consci= ous choice about what node software to run moving forward).
  • Also, t= here must be caution of not using the original github.com/bitcoin/bit= coin name for anything else, as that would break automatic GitHub url r= edirects.


Thank you for your time. T= his is just an idea I wanted to share for discussion, and I would appreciat= e any thoughts.

Juan

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