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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-5615d0b292asi24883e0c.1.2025.12.18.19.31.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Dec 2025 19:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e; Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b98983bae80so1174406a12.0 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2025 19:31:42 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: AY/fxX6LIyJpbaSzimDyA6CrQG8Ww6A4bka70bqe5ujnAOfeDf0vWo4KZYdmhUh9w0b 43ADqyvCFCBBNEVzDN3u/LDpljtGoJz1fFbycxuKuB5PJfWKkjyA7JoS0o6CTnJMXSRl8RDsXxb Z59LjJUQBN2Uk1iIWvf61RzTSe1PEf153PmzcIXEfZRhbgUp/ATPWhHiz4WtENZgDAkvGwENK58 iRpzEUEyiq/Y1k6DeHJrtqLm2vO1a/U0nI0kA9DPG7ZxUlgGmRH/5k5g3J1g5g2oZj1fFibNLWv E/d4qudgCu/Bd7xoAREaOhiX2VGbu4LeOucyyY4M5jUaqNbmJeA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:7022:6199:b0:11f:1e59:4c2d with SMTP id a92af1059eb24-121721acb6dmr1287147c88.7.1766115101602; Thu, 18 Dec 2025 19:31:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32f8c689-314d-4a5e-9af6-2e3e704582e6n@googlegroups.com> <4e947f47-b43d-4ec3-ac6a-aa66ea0cfb79n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4e947f47-b43d-4ec3-ac6a-aa66ea0cfb79n@googlegroups.com> From: Greg Maxwell Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 03:31:29 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AQt7F2rz28dxTCkZICqFA4qJxe0rNkaaJITwz4CKhuhStf11ZIHkOIbev0tRo1s Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: The Cat, BIP draft discussion. To: Jonathan Voss Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000437ac5064645b76f" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=UtovLDEH; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000437ac5064645b76f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received no prior response from you, so I suspect the issue is on your end-- since if you sent one I would normally have been directly copied. In any case, your message makes no sense. If an output is provably unspendable then it is unspendable. No amount of "clever steganography" can change that. If you're imagining that perhaps they are *presumed* to be unspendable but actually *are* spendable, then sure that would be an issue but with any change to consensus relevant code great care must be taken to not introduce errors. Actually *making* a consensus change would only increase the potential for mistakes. These costs are just another reason why this hysteria over a non-issue is misplaced. But in any case it is better that (any) implementations that care about stamps put in the effort to define their exclusions in ways that are safe than to burden everyone with a consensus change that doesn't care about it. On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:49=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Voss w= rote: > This is my third attempt to respond to this. Idk what is going wrong here= . > > The problem with dropping Bitcoin Stamps UTXOs from the UTXO set without = a > consensus change is that a clever use of steganography could cause one of > those otherwise unspendable outputs to be spendable, thus causing a fork > between those nodes that adopted the Stamp pruning method and those that > did not once one of those steganographic Stamps is spent. Though this is > unlikely, it is still technically possible, and I would not put it past t= he > denizens of the Internet to stir up trouble just for its own sake. > > On Friday, December 12, 2025 at 6:49:41=E2=80=AFPM UTC-5 Greg Maxwell wro= te: > >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:26=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Voss = wrote: >> >>> Since the Bitcoin Stamps outputs are already unspendable, it makes >>> perfect sense to mark and drop them from the UTXO set. >> >> >> There is no consensus change involved in not storing a provably >> unspendable output, it's just an implementation detail with no >> interoperability implications and doesn't need a BIP. Bitcoin core has >> long done so for several types of unspendable outputs, e.g. outputs over >> 10kb and ones starting with OP_RETURN. >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4e947f47-b43d-4ec3-ac6a-aa66= ea0cfb79n%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAS2fgSEX0dcg73qnrj5uP64Xaw%3Dukj7fhzng_1gT3BntjocNQ%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000437ac5064645b76f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I received no prior response from you, so I suspect t= he issue is on your end-- since if you sent one I would normally have been = directly copied.=C2=A0

In any case, your message m= akes no sense. If an output is provably unspendable then it is unspendable.= =C2=A0 No amount of "clever steganography" can change that.=C2=A0= =C2=A0If you're imagining that perhaps they are *presumed* to be unspe= ndable but actually *are* spendable, then sure that would be an issue but w= ith any change to consensus relevant code great care must be taken to not i= ntroduce errors.=C2=A0 Actually *making* a consensus change would only incr= ease the potential for mistakes.

These costs are j= ust another reason why this hysteria over a non-issue is misplaced.

But in any case it is better that (any) implementations t= hat care about stamps put in the effort to define their exclusions in ways = that are safe than to burden everyone with a consensus change that doesn= 9;t care about it.


On Fri, Dec 19= , 2025 at 1:49=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Voss <k98kurz@gmail.com> wrote:
This is my third attempt to respond to this. Idk wha= t is going wrong here.

The problem with dropping Bitcoin= Stamps UTXOs from the UTXO set without a consensus change is that a clever= use of steganography could cause one of those otherwise unspendable output= s to be spendable, thus causing a fork between those nodes that adopted the= Stamp pruning method and those that did not once one of those steganograph= ic Stamps is spent. Though this is unlikely, it is still technically possib= le, and I would not put it past the denizens of the Internet to stir up tro= uble just for its own sake.

On Friday, December 12, 2025 at 6:49:41=E2= =80=AFPM UTC-5 Greg Maxwell wrote:
On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 a= t 9:26=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Voss <k98...@gmail.com> wrote:

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