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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-5b954ae2430si91373173.3.2025.11.20.09.23.55 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Nov 2025 09:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b; Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-29516a36affso16448355ad.3 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2025 09:23:55 -0800 (PST) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXX8fTElaZf1YU1Kwqwss22/D+mY/do6GYBFnfe1yD+xmDBi9BVaYGp+uCC388aARN2mXEhcRym9s/A@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctqBL1QZH+51NW/WuPv3Q4Olni1rgpC4oHsz6lPiybivVmyVwlsMXiaefNlCEf Y0Fs+04KtGPNVnU3vrJeep5SmpdQvhiav2dr7w/RwZsvFSiYp/iDmj0z5bsMnTvwvKrBpUgm2i1 nTnv+TtUrPsIilTPE0RPOojtlSs5WOMIfzqmQ+BY8u8uo2LWGDzgru1HUGASuGl4wLZBQDYm5DJ yAOxMoN2PkJkSPJFF8lP+SOtWtW1AnmgX4hA89ajzKuxr6jGBjYifGVgp2BVG46+oB+HgswpJF/ MyfHe74rj3SofmhWYUGnFY2ek3n9ZnByJbcqD+EM+yyuG3krR7Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:7022:4425:b0:11a:4ffb:9825 with SMTP id a92af1059eb24-11c9380088dmr1606853c88.6.1763659434589; Thu, 20 Nov 2025 09:23:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <205b3532-ccc1-4b2f-964f-264fc6e0e70b@murch.one> <3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16ccb1cc91@dtrt.org> <012c719c-0f56-474d-8851-a2db3a0b422cn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Maxwell Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 17:23:43 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bkxj1R9Y0pWIpgja7H59FM5lHqMgQoJggzTHPufMVytLxoD73vYkBf8oKw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Motion to Activate BIP 3 To: Oghenovo Usiwoma Cc: Bitcoin Mechanic , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a8138064409f637" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=HfYZXjrL; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000001a8138064409f637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because if you don't you'll eventually get figured out and people will ignore all your further submissions--- in fact, that will *already* happen, which is part of why the guidance is useful. No one is obligated to even read any of these submissions and if indeed there are many low quality AI powered ones in the future (as we've been starting to see now) then many won't be read. On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 9:47=E2=80=AFAM Oghenovo Usiwoma wrote: > > I think it makes sense to request that submissions should state if - an= d > to what degree - AI has been used. It's reasonable to expect fewer eyebal= ls > on AI generated submissions as they're so easily generated and their > potential for wasting reviewer time is high. > > In my humble opinion, I believe that humans will continue to use the > easiest method available to them to achieve their goals. If we agree that > humans will do this, then there will be a lot of AI-assited content. If I > did write an AI-assited BIP draft, why would I add this "AI-label" to my > BIP when I know that it will cause reviewers to ignore it? > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 3:18=E2=80=AFAM Bitcoin Mechanic < > bitcoinmechanic@ocean.xyz> wrote: > >> I think it makes sense to request that submissions should state if - and >> to what degree - AI has been used. It's reasonable to expect fewer eyeba= lls >> on AI generated submissions as they're so easily generated and their >> potential for wasting reviewer time is high. >> >> If people are submitting AI generated code and lying about it than that >> obviously undermines what it is they're proposing so they're naturally >> disincentivized to do so, thus the honour system should be relatively >> effective. >> >> I think most people have begun using it for making outlines and tweaking >> from there. The time saved is too significant for many to resist, and >> declaring that it was used for an initial outline shouldn't be too >> dissuasive for any reviewers. >> >> The deeper discussion around legal implications and generally about AI >> code quality is not resolvable here, it's a massive topic with deep >> philosophical implications that go way outside the scope of BIP 3 imo. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 2:40:55=E2=80=AFPM UTC-8 Bitcoin Erro= r Log >> wrote: >> >>> A few years ago, I had this idea that bitcoin divisibility needed to be >>> fixed as a misconception. I put it (proto-bip177) in our bitcoin wallet >>> app, promoted the idea where I could. It worked great, but only our use= rs >>> knew. >>> >>> And then AI became good enough to use for some things. AI has been a >>> HUGE unlock for me and my learning and creating style. Early this year,= I >>> told my AI, filled with context about the upcoming BIP3 standard, and >>> examples of related BIPs, to make a BIP for me that properly expressed = all >>> of the nuances of my idea on how to handle removal of decimals in a UX. >>> >>> It looked pretty good, but AI wasn't as good as it is today, and the >>> formatting was total slop. Thankfully, most of the BIP reviewers are >>> actually amazing people, and I was able to contact them directly and as= k >>> for help, because I'm not an actual developer (yet). After some private >>> help, it was good enough for the mailing list, and a real draft. >>> >>> BIP 177 is a very simple BIP compared to most, and I'd probably make it >>> better if I started today, but ... it exists! It might be the first/onl= y >>> (?) vibe-BIP, and, as of last week, due to Cashapp and Square support, = it's >>> possible that BIP 177 is now in more people's hands than not. >>> >>> Today, I now have several private drafts of BIPs I am working on with >>> AI, I am trying to impose less slop on my peers as I work in private. T= hese >>> newer BIPs are increasingly technical, and I have also started vibe-cod= ing >>> implementations to test them, and I continue growing into an engineer. >>> >>> Now the BIP repo is my favorite part of Bitcoin and interacting with >>> Bitcoin Core. I feel sincere gratitude to three BIP reviewers specifica= lly >>> for humoring my sincere, yet not matured, effort and desire to improve >>> Bitcoin without changing consensus code. >>> >>> My vision for the BIP repo and reviewers, and AI, is much different tha= n >>> yours. It is part of the story that brought me closer to Bitcoin >>> development, and deep respect to my superiors for tolerating me while I >>> was/am fledgling. >>> >>> Please don't add more weird subjective, exclusive barriers just because >>> AI is warping reality. Deal with it, and please, please, continue makin= g an >>> effort to not only guard the BIP repo, but ensure it remains a fertile >>> ground where Bitcoin Core maintains an attitude of being great stewards= to >>> the people, not only the specs. >>> >>> After all, we will need people to replace you some day, and those peopl= e >>> need role models too. >>> >>> ~John Carvalho >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 1:18=E2=80=AFAM Greg Maxwell wrote: >>> >>>> No doubt *you* are able to make good documents with or without the aid >>>> of AI. >>>> >>>> With outright AI 'authorship' you immediately run into potential >>>> copyright issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by" >>>> prohibition, otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient. >>>> >>>> Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare maximized by permitting LLM >>>> glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it's benign, = I >>>> readily agree, in others its harmful. But the number of good submissi= ons >>>> that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (being limited by >>>> expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potential poor >>>> submissions is increased astronomically. So I think it's pretty clear= ly a >>>> net harm to have text authored that way. >>>> >>>> I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiting step >>>> in writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at times i= t's >>>> possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship much easi= er >>>> ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to using it to author. >>>> >>>> There is a particularly clear pattern at least with current LLM tools >>>> that users who lack the skills to have authored the work without an LL= M are >>>> generally unable to recognize when the LLM is full of crap (and even >>>> sometimes when they should know better), so unfortunately they're only >>>> benign to use in the hands of those whose need is the least. >>>> >>>> And as a reviewer outside of Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers >>>> to be absolutely the worst to deal with. Because they're not submittin= g >>>> their own words and ideas, they're unable to change their thinking in >>>> response or explain sufficiently to change yours--- the interactions o= ften >>>> degrade to them just copy and pasting their chatbot back to you. Beca= use >>>> it's cheap to generate more text they also tend to flood you out with >>>> documents several times longer than any human author would have bother= ed >>>> with. >>>> >>>> I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat >>>> to most open collaborations: Now its so easy to get flooded out by sub= tly >>>> worthless material. Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long strug= gled >>>> with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by >>>> thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and e= ven >>>> the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad = as >>>> the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been i= n the >>>> past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals >>>> before lunch without even breaking a sweat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2025-11-04 15:10, Murch wrote: >>>>> > Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed: >>>>> > [...] >>>>> > - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5 >>>>> > [...] >>>>> > =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2006 >>>>> >>>>> I strongly disagree with this change. If I were to begin working on = a >>>>> new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process. I'd ask it to >>>>> help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it t= o >>>>> create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever >>>>> other >>>>> work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me >>>>> refine >>>>> the document until I was satisfied. >>>>> >>>>> I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before >>>>> submitting >>>>> it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest >>>>> quality >>>>> work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of >>>>> AI >>>>> and human writing and editing. >>>>> >>>>> I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people >>>>> who >>>>> are less comfortable with writing technical English-language document= s >>>>> than I am. For example, non-native literates, people with >>>>> disabilities >>>>> that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're >>>>> bad writers. >>>>> >>>>> The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, >>>>> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality >>>>> BIP >>>>> PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content. I'm guessing the >>>>> motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical >>>>> content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore >>>>> we >>>>> should ban the use of AI. >>>>> >>>>> However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process >>>>> already requires high-quality content.[2] AI-generated content can b= e >>>>> high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a >>>>> knowledgeable human. Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant >>>>> and >>>>> penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them >>>>> effectively. >>>>> >>>>> I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006. >>>>> >>>>> -Dave >>>>> >>>>> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005 >>>>> [2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is >>>>> of >>>>> **high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a >>>>> pull >>>>> request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16= ccb1cc91%40dtrt.org >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRV1aZ9xvAhBriZ%3DX= dmYf5CvrvXWXsjVD07uynivW_qkg%40mail.gmail.com >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/012c719c-0f56-474d-8851-a2d= b3a0b422cn%40googlegroups.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAOCjZ9TLtsyjXTdonWK-zUj-V%3= DHtFnDeb92D_W%2BVPV6TCg%3Donw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAS2fgSHLa9pumDip0X7Y6%3D%2BvNf_i_j2Jz9LQGDUNdquU9zHtA%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000001a8138064409f637 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Because if you don't you'll eventually get fi= gured out and people will ignore all your further submissions--- in fact, t= hat will *already* happen, which is part of why the guidance is useful.=C2= =A0 No one is obligated to even read any of these submissions and if indeed= there are many low quality AI powered ones in the future (as we've bee= n starting to see now) then many won't be read.



On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 9:47=E2=80=AFAM O= ghenovo Usiwoma <eunovo9@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">> I think it makes sense to request that submissions sho= uld state if - and to what degree - AI has been used. It's reasonable t= o expect fewer eyeballs on AI generated submissions as they're so easil= y generated and their potential for wasting reviewer time is high.

I= n my humble opinion, I believe that humans will continue to use the easiest= method available=C2=A0to them to achieve their goals. If we agree that hum= ans will do this, then there will be a lot of AI-assited content. If I did = write an AI-assited=C2=A0BIP draft, why would I add this "AI-label&quo= t; to my BIP when I know that it will cause reviewers to ignore it?

On T= hu, Nov 20, 2025 at 3:18=E2=80=AFAM Bitcoin Mechanic <bitcoinmechanic@ocean.xyz&= gt; wrote:
I thi= nk it makes sense to request that submissions should state if - and to what= degree - AI has been used. It's reasonable to expect fewer eyeballs on= AI generated submissions as they're so easily generated and their pote= ntial for wasting reviewer time is high.

If people are s= ubmitting AI generated code and lying about it than that obviously undermin= es what it is they're proposing so they're naturally disincentivize= d to do so, thus the honour system should be relatively effective.

I think most people have begun using it for making outline= s and tweaking from there. The time saved is too significant for many to re= sist, and declaring that it was used for an initial outline shouldn't b= e too dissuasive for any reviewers.

The deeper dis= cussion around legal implications and generally about AI code quality is no= t resolvable here, it's a massive topic with deep philosophical implica= tions that go way outside the scope of BIP 3 imo.

= Thanks

On Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 2:40:55=E2=80=AFPM UTC-8 Bitc= oin Error Log wrote:
A few years ago, I had this idea that bitcoin di= visibility needed to be fixed as a misconception. I put it (proto-bip177) i= n our bitcoin wallet app, promoted the idea where I could. It worked great,= but only our users knew.

And then AI became good = enough to use for some things. AI has been a HUGE unlock for me and my lear= ning and creating style. Early this year, I told my AI, filled with context= about the upcoming BIP3 standard, and examples of related BIPs, to make a = BIP for me that properly expressed all of the nuances of my idea on how to = handle removal of decimals in a UX.

It looked pret= ty good, but AI wasn't as good as it is today, and the formatting was t= otal slop. Thankfully, most of the BIP reviewers are actually amazing peopl= e, and I was able to contact them directly and ask for help, because I'= m not an actual developer (yet). After some private help, it was good enoug= h for the mailing list, and a real draft.=C2=A0

BI= P 177 is a very simple BIP compared to most, and I'd probably make it b= etter if I started today, but ... it exists! It might be the first/only (?)= vibe-BIP, and, as of last week, due to Cashapp and Square support, it'= s possible that BIP 177 is now in more people's hands than not.=C2=A0

Today, I now have several private drafts of BIPs I = am working on with AI, I am trying to impose less slop on my peers as I wor= k in private. These newer BIPs are increasingly technical, and I have also = started vibe-coding implementations to test them, and I continue growing in= to an engineer.=C2=A0

Now the BIP repo is my favor= ite part of Bitcoin and interacting with Bitcoin Core. I feel sincere grati= tude to three BIP reviewers specifically for humoring my sincere, yet not m= atured, effort and desire to improve Bitcoin without changing consensus cod= e.

My vision for the BIP repo and reviewers, and A= I, is much different than yours. It is part of the story that brought me cl= oser to Bitcoin development, and deep respect to my superiors for toleratin= g me while I was/am fledgling.=C2=A0

Please don= 9;t add more weird subjective, exclusive barriers just because AI is warpin= g reality. Deal with it, and please, please, continue making an effort to n= ot only guard the BIP repo, but ensure it remains a fertile ground where Bi= tcoin Core maintains an attitude of being great stewards to the people, not= only the specs.=C2=A0

After all, we will need peo= ple to replace you some day, and those people need role models too.

~John Carvalho


On = Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 1:18=E2=80=AFAM Greg Maxwell <g= max...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
No d= oubt *you* are able to make good documents with or without the aid of AI.

With outright AI 'authorship' you immediate= ly run into potential=20 copyright issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by&qu= ot;=20 prohibition, otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient.
Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare=C2=A0maximized by= permitting LLM glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it= 's benign, I readily agree, in others its harmful.=C2=A0 But the number= of good submissions that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (= being limited by expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potent= ial poor submissions is increased astronomically.=C2=A0 So I think it's= pretty clearly a net harm to have text authored that way.

I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiti= ng step in writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at time= s it's possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship muc= h easier ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to u= sing it to author.

There is a particularly clear pattern at l= east with current LLM tools that users who lack the skills to have authored= the work without an LLM are generally unable to recognize when the LLM is = full of crap (and even sometimes when they should know better), so unfortun= ately they're only benign to use in the hands of those whose need is th= e least.=C2=A0=C2=A0

And as a reviewer outside of = Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers to be absolutely the worst to = deal with. Because they're not submitting their own words and ideas, th= ey're unable to change their thinking in response or explain sufficient= ly to change yours--- the interactions often degrade to them just copy and = pasting their chatbot back to you.=C2=A0 Because it's cheap to generate= more text they also tend to flood you out with documents several times lon= ger than any human author would have bothered with.

I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat to= most open collaborations: Now its=C2=A0so easy to get flooded out by subtl= y worthless material.=C2=A0 Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long str= uggled with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by= thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and e= ven the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad a= s the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been in t= he past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals be= fore lunch without even breaking a sweat.



On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding <da...@dtrt.org> wrote:
On 2025-11-04 15:10, Murch wrote:
> Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed:
> [...]
> =C2=A0 - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5=
> [...]
> =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pul= l/2006

I strongly disagree with this change.=C2=A0 If I were to begin working on a=
new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process.=C2=A0 I'd ask it = to
help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it to =
create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever other work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me refin= e
the document until I was satisfied.

I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before submitting it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest quality work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of AI and human writing and editing.

I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people who are less comfortable with writing technical English-language documents
than I am.=C2=A0 For example, non-native literates, people with disabilitie= s
that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're <= br> bad writers.

The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, <= br> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality BIP PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content.=C2=A0 I'm guessing the=
motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical
content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore we should ban the use of AI.

However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process
already requires high-quality content.[2]=C2=A0 AI-generated content can be=
high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a
knowledgeable human.=C2=A0 Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant a= nd
penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them
effectively.

I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006.

-Dave

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005<= br> [2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is o= f
**high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a pull request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added

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