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[2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2adb3069b0e04-59580a373e6si294554e87.0.2025.11.18.17.20.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Nov 2025 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::633 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::633; Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b735ce67d1dso797941366b.3 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2025 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXTLw5PuJy/u0cOB8HW/GlBD8c9zGlFDZMrty99P1XpyvV/YNLXohTqqk/n7lSpLm9BdsDxRhsBu2ik@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuCcLSCAdpzCicuNqVPRMfLheFLkBA0rDDtt6VeDtvqXKU0STFHW5UkYARy3q2 av7Gf5WaonCA9mrsRG2xVH5LZlg1yuKuhFcLNn9nnaAVDKTVUpMzAvxZKDmqyY61xZMxYsXtshB J2biCIqUGD4zT/uPHnv1jAiikJFapsPMLahskWdHxvGpviGBrUjGjls142GOrxJq6vpvaRsbH0f G5bcrJyHnsQ8yfj4qZTD8BAuSg5ohb2sQINK7yfOMM5yIdmRgRdTTQj5QXDaqJA1CswwJFaVEM/ YqyXC47lQRsG87MYz/dfc/rYc/rGSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:1b02:b0:b73:52c7:faba with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b736780af28mr1435758966b.4.1763515231145; Tue, 18 Nov 2025 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <205b3532-ccc1-4b2f-964f-264fc6e0e70b@murch.one> <3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16ccb1cc91@dtrt.org> In-Reply-To: From: Bryan Bishop Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 19:20:19 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_blyO_mqWIauZB0LAugZ3LyM8ROG8gErNv4OiTJj5Nl8BMWUtcG1wWRpVh0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Motion to Activate BIP 3 To: Greg Maxwell Cc: "David A. Harding" , Murch , Bitcoin Development Mailing List , Bryan Bishop Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e895b10643e8627a" X-Original-Sender: kanzure@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=aM9VTI6+; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::633 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kanzure@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000e895b10643e8627a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The social norm should be specifically against wasting the time of project volunteers or contributors. It doesn't matter whether the waste was generated by LLMs or biological neurons. If someone wants to donate LLM outputs to an open source project, then I think they should instead donate LLM token credits to any active existing contributors they wish, rather than LLM outputs. - Bryan https://x.com/kanzure On Tue, Nov 18, 2025, 7:18=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell wro= te: > No doubt *you* are able to make good documents with or without the aid of > AI. > > With outright AI 'authorship' you immediately run into potential copyrigh= t > issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by" prohibition, > otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient. > > Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare maximized by permitting LLM > glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it's benign, I > readily agree, in others its harmful. But the number of good submissions > that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (being limited by > expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potential poor > submissions is increased astronomically. So I think it's pretty clearly = a > net harm to have text authored that way. > > I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiting step in > writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at times it's > possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship much easier > ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to using it to author. > > There is a particularly clear pattern at least with current LLM tools tha= t > users who lack the skills to have authored the work without an LLM are > generally unable to recognize when the LLM is full of crap (and even > sometimes when they should know better), so unfortunately they're only > benign to use in the hands of those whose need is the least. > > And as a reviewer outside of Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers to > be absolutely the worst to deal with. Because they're not submitting thei= r > own words and ideas, they're unable to change their thinking in response = or > explain sufficiently to change yours--- the interactions often degrade to > them just copy and pasting their chatbot back to you. Because it's cheap > to generate more text they also tend to flood you out with documents > several times longer than any human author would have bothered with. > > I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat to > most open collaborations: Now its so easy to get flooded out by subtly > worthless material. Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long struggle= d > with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by > thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and even > the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad as > the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been in t= he > past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals > before lunch without even breaking a sweat. > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding = wrote: > >> On 2025-11-04 15:10, Murch wrote: >> > Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed: >> > [...] >> > - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5 >> > [...] >> > =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2006 >> >> I strongly disagree with this change. If I were to begin working on a >> new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process. I'd ask it to >> help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it to >> create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever other >> work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me refine >> the document until I was satisfied. >> >> I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before submitting >> it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest quality >> work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of AI >> and human writing and editing. >> >> I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people who >> are less comfortable with writing technical English-language documents >> than I am. For example, non-native literates, people with disabilities >> that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're >> bad writers. >> >> The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, >> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality BIP >> PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content. I'm guessing the >> motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical >> content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore we >> should ban the use of AI. >> >> However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process >> already requires high-quality content.[2] AI-generated content can be >> high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a >> knowledgeable human. Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant and >> penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them >> effectively. >> >> I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006. >> >> -Dave >> >> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005 >> [2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is of >> **high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a pull >> request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16ccb= 1cc91%40dtrt.org >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRV1aZ9xvAhBriZ%3DXdmY= f5CvrvXWXsjVD07uynivW_qkg%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CABaSBaxR0ytoHHFEAe-%2B49VSWPaYan6N3J1DdG-51LK-d49xWA%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000e895b10643e8627a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The social norm should be specifically against wasti= ng the time of project volunteers or contributors. It doesn't matter wh= ether the waste was generated by LLMs or biological neurons. If someone wan= ts to donate LLM outputs to an open source project, then I think they shoul= d instead donate LLM token credits to any active existing contributors they= wish, rather than LLM outputs.


<= /div>
On Tue, Nov 18, 2025, 7:18= =E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell= @gmail.com> wrote:
No doubt *you* are able to make good docum= ents with or without the aid of AI.

With outright = AI 'authorship' you immediately run into potential=20 copyright issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by&qu= ot;=20 prohibition, otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient.
Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare=C2=A0maximized by= permitting LLM glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it= 's benign, I readily agree, in others its harmful.=C2=A0 But the number= of good submissions that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (= being limited by expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potent= ial poor submissions is increased astronomically.=C2=A0 So I think it's= pretty clearly a net harm to have text authored that way.

I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiti= ng step in writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at time= s it's possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship muc= h easier ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to u= sing it to author.

There is a particularly clear pattern at l= east with current LLM tools that users who lack the skills to have authored= the work without an LLM are generally unable to recognize when the LLM is = full of crap (and even sometimes when they should know better), so unfortun= ately they're only benign to use in the hands of those whose need is th= e least.=C2=A0=C2=A0

And as a reviewer outside of = Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers to be absolutely the worst to = deal with. Because they're not submitting their own words and ideas, th= ey're unable to change their thinking in response or explain sufficient= ly to change yours--- the interactions often degrade to them just copy and = pasting their chatbot back to you.=C2=A0 Because it's cheap to generate= more text they also tend to flood you out with documents several times lon= ger than any human author would have bothered with.

I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat to= most open collaborations: Now its=C2=A0so easy to get flooded out by subtl= y worthless material.=C2=A0 Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long str= uggled with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by= thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and e= ven the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad a= s the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been in t= he past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals be= fore lunch without even breaking a sweat.



On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> wrote:
On = 2025-11-04 15:10, Murch wrote:
> Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed:
> [...]
> =C2=A0 - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5=
> [...]
> =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/p= ull/2006

I strongly disagree with this change.=C2=A0 If I were to begin working on a=
new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process.=C2=A0 I'd ask it = to
help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it to =
create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever other work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me refin= e
the document until I was satisfied.

I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before submitting it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest quality work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of AI and human writing and editing.

I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people who are less comfortable with writing technical English-language documents
than I am.=C2=A0 For example, non-native literates, people with disabilitie= s
that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're <= br> bad writers.

The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, <= br> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality BIP PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content.=C2=A0 I'm guessing the=
motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical
content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore we should ban the use of AI.

However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process
already requires high-quality content.[2]=C2=A0 AI-generated content can be=
high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a
knowledgeable human.=C2=A0 Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant a= nd
penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them
effectively.

I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006.

-Dave

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005
[2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is o= f
**high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a pull request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added

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