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[2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-43cf259a9b8si170563f8f.6.2026.03.30.23.37.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5a0ff30b240so5975275e87.0 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:37:51 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1774939070; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=OJL1+DKacjbjqaxiAXx70/+Hn8+ipcYZmkebf9WCuwEtZxgOfWtfnb6dwSuv1TFZ+U a4M4X9YewnlLs/6wy14iFflnfEdkihN0aTUp64FaRgPl9ekDD9APt6dD/FkHDAHCKPz4 507NR/+REM+FIdl1acbDpjLB79+2wbluBPHR74xh0LZu1deLfe/BfHbgJe/bdCept6Uj wf+/2HKVEa1/f0zQPX7amfzkbx/fkfvyeBXU1SIU1OSdfhW4ylHOOUpBZVQogrZflpzE n0uoTA5DgSxSyS0XenIZb+7TL8/Beybw7hS2evsQqN+4EoN+PPNTyIgC97goXdRNssou NU3A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=yLPUOH8oudgUCwAKaCgLBYIUX/WdCsbvkvzArU/U3go=; fh=/doNTTXQSSOXBQjbytB7h0tCeqXWCp1NRO85mJhsAEw=; b=WL+3gE7VqwjwjFhX8FF0B1+/Bm+botCyHUVNUcPgzmZt3oAkk/Ls2USm2NJ6XS8+jg 8t92clYoO1HQoQUXxeGcRJavNK+CQ50ttjbIdyOjC/yYoftecRLdCrM79xgDqtEyD+zL 6VsaEYH/aRcZByPX3g9soo6KHW6nJs7Ty4CxEODaxOFNnZMXeCO9MHFZGKlqzbf58lQL a3E9p+bg6aEOyn1mZ8Qe7V8r0UefV9IqbijbRrpLzb9L6HLjhXJa6wowwuzHGFvVSpAc 7uA/paRqumuGsjsr/mu84gZRafCord1sk7SiANv6GldPKHubaZFynGDAzloh9cqPIpbP pnZQ==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none X-Gm-Gg: ATEYQzyTPQpOPvX1PAsjnteNUocBwNEFtH/e47ex6qVhnPAT7we4HbI1+DkUuf3faxq BI+m93XpkEocnj+86KKIGDYx5PdESDyOVL2WA4cQ+aYuQIbOEGPZvLGwxyA/A4jAS2OQGTnSW0f JDOJMuL48MB+rmEWLx5zHo9tqY/4LkTHm45nSNN++qTXIHPghbsyH28b3PvlbsM2zJ0L4ZjkOEZ /uj5dnWzjuyGhNggZB/7CZxsTFt+A9cYyT+r18HpTeRvOi5x9CSADACoGaIcqFYDIZ9ghC5suu5 RyvLWpCEFKh6q5il06l/QNrm9q3Y14EQwfpDatgS8l/+1g3TNsp9ZKgra6PBRBvZfBz+bO/Vr7K UjxhTeuiwXWXkWQ8rbYDFT20Y8e54plMQ5l4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1088:b0:5a2:82d2:c4cd with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5a2ab92cc1emr5702005e87.34.1774939069987; Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:37:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <177470526996.8.13158104493925689779.1256635257@aleeas.com> In-Reply-To: <177470526996.8.13158104493925689779.1256635257@aleeas.com> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2026 08:37:38 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AQROBzCmoJN7IqSnTMcsAwN_KksfKCIabuJqXJaSTe7v9v9uuyB93Fq01NAEZaQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP Idea: Scrambling BIP39 recovery seeds To: dr.oso.phila.cgeyb@aleeas.com Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c3beeb064e4c3475" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20251104 header.b=RGSvSOP2; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000c3beeb064e4c3475 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you read BIP39 in detail? It sounds like you're inventing an alternative to the passphrase protection described here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#from-mnemoni= c-to-seed On Sat, Mar 28, 2026 at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM dr.oso.phila.cgeyb via Bitcoin Deve= lopment Mailing List wrote: > Dear Developers > > Thank you for dedicating your time on a thrilling project - Bitcoin. > > Recently, this idea came into my mind. I tried to summarize and write it > down as clear as possible, following BIP3, which states: > "As a first sketch of the proposal is taking shape, the authors should > present it to the Bitcoin Development Mailing List. This gives the > authors a chance to collect initial feedback and address fundamental > concerns." > I refrained from forking the github bitcoin/bips tree just to upload one > properly formatted document. I am no programmer and unfamiliar to the > world of bitcoin developers, so forgive me if I do things which seem > strange to you. > > The main question about this idea is: does a suitable function exists? I > thought of discrete exponentiation. But as a former math student, I > remember that this does not always work as expected beforehand... > All I know that a similar concept is used in Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange > and you're more into cryptography as I am. Therefore I thought that it's > best to ask this question to you. Maybe you have a better idea. > > If no idea comes up, well... then it's a dead end. > > Best > Dr. Oso Phila, a small bug > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/177470526996.8.1315810449392= 5689779.1256635257%40aleeas.com > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CADL_X_d2h_qiNfw0qcH9ii681_8raCX1M0mpyOuFB_2xbw%3D2zw%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000c3beeb064e4c3475 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have you read BIP39 in detail?

It sounds like you&#= 39;re inventing an alternative to the passphrase protection described here:= =C2=A0https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip= -0039.mediawiki#from-mnemonic-to-seed

On Sat, Mar = 28, 2026 at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM dr.oso.phila.cgeyb via Bitcoin Development Mail= ing List <bitcoindev@goog= legroups.com> wrote:
Dear Developers

Thank you for dedicating your time on a thrilling project - Bitcoin.

Recently, this idea came into my mind. I tried to summarize and write it down as clear as possible, following BIP3, which states:
"As a first sketch of the proposal is taking shape, the authors should=
present it to the Bitcoin Development Mailing List. This gives the
authors a chance to collect initial feedback and address fundamental
concerns."
I refrained from forking the github bitcoin/bips tree just to upload one properly formatted document. I am no programmer and unfamiliar to the
world of bitcoin developers, so forgive me if I do things which seem
strange to you.

The main question about this idea is: does a suitable function exists? I thought of discrete exponentiation. But as a former math student, I
remember that this does not always work as expected beforehand...
All I know that a similar concept is used in Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange and you're more into cryptography as I am. Therefore I thought that it&= #39;s
best to ask this question to you. Maybe you have a better idea.

If no idea comes up, well... then it's a dead end.

Best
Dr. Oso Phila, a small bug

--
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