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[2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 38308e7fff4ca-378eef150b6si1279621fa.3.2025.10.27.05.14.15 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Oct 2025 05:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-57bd482dfd2so5009845e87.2 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 05:14:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctdN64UqSJBXp9IA5azRPovarYQveD1P8BZMxH0fJwFHbHplVSx+876GJY5x2j JN7NT4qJA8iHc/zD4XdnW5eUggA3E3CDOHwy0cf4/DqthEDW0GRLaS4EbXsIhrM9gjvEuC8Imdv YvbZBrEt5XAFPqCoJfUASUHDcaHmsaeXRv6sqisg7Fp2DLiuqDzSrYVQ6FO+VXmyO9M3NO01QJJ UkG0tlts1sqIWxJavHTj6qaSCB/dxAN0+BuksTWtFQ/6dyMsh++bI09VAOGege3SOHUH+H5YKr2 IXvmCA7cSFpNYDGaXfmz69GTjo3PEY9+hSC770Vfe//5rGvm7yYTn5fglzQeKvvOMiMmQEZoPND HDtP6OOo2qGjTeQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:4022:b0:592:f5a4:ece6 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-592f5a4f458mr5918456e87.14.1761567254691; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 05:14:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jameson Lopp Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 08:14:01 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bmwQyS_865Mrkc7ltgbzlI_TdbcWg4zTp4GqKwF7B279VUWXXomZnuxFdM Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Reduced Data Temporary Softfork To: dathonohm@proton.me Cc: "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076ca84064222d698" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=SFd1EL40; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000076ca84064222d698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 12:22=E2=80=AFAM wrote: > Jameson - > > You mention "technical concerns" but don't give any examples. Would you > mind sharing one? > > Two of the biggest technical concerns are that the proposed changes are confiscatory for certain scripts and the fact that the reactive chain reorganization logic actually makes it possible for anyone to trivially double spend their coins by triggering a reorganization. > You also mention "the underlying implication of using legal coercion to > require miners and other network participants to comply with arbitrary > legal and moral frameworks", but I don't think the BIP implies this at al= l. > I quote the BIP: "rejecting this softfork may subject you to legal or moral consequences" This vague, hand waving fear mongering is the underlying implication of legal coercion to which I referred. It's not appropriate for a technical specification. > The BIP merely highlights a legal risk Bitcoin Core 30 has created for > node operators for no good reason, and attempts to eliminate it. No > "coercion" is implied. You and anyone else who are fine shouldering this > risk are free to stay on the old data-friendly chain. I doubt you will ha= ve > much company, though. > > Best, > > Dathon > > On Sunday, October 26th, 2025 at 2:49 PM, Jameson Lopp < > jameson.lopp@gmail.com> wrote: > > It's quite clear from the PR discussion that there are a multitude of > contentious issues at play with this proposal. > > Even aside from all of the technical concerns, the underlying implication > of using legal coercion to require miners and other network participants = to > comply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks makes it a non-starter i= n > my opinion. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 3:43=E2=80=AFPM dathonohm via Bitcoin Development= Mailing > List wrote: > >> Hi list - >> >> Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has become necessary t= o >> move forward on luke-jr's ML proposal >> to temporarily limit >> arbitrary data at the consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks with no >> objections: >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017 >> >> The idea is to strongly re-affirm in consensus that bitcoin is money, no= t >> data storage. It is implemented as a temporary softfork that can activat= e >> in one of two different ways: proactive, or reactive. >> >> After a year, the soft fork expires, giving us time to come up with a >> more permanent solution. >> >> The timeline is a bit tight, but I think everyone has incentives to >> support a quick and orderly activation. >> >> Please feel free to leave a comment on the PR or reach out to me over >> email with any feedback. >> >> There is much work still to do, so if you have some technical skills and >> would like to join in the effort with dev/testing, please reach out as w= ell. >> >> Bitcoin is money. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Dathon Ohm >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/AWiF9dIo9yjUF9RAs_NLwYdGK11= BF8C8oEArR6Cys-rbcZ8_qs3RoJURqK3CqwCCWM_zwGFn5n3RECW_j5hGS01ntGzPLptqcOyOej= unYsU%3D%40proton.me >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_caKFvypdDa2k-Hhy1QCMJ= gnb6Rc8i0vBRW9%3Dyoq4h2ZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CADL_X_dLfJCai%3Dj9m3ARPitqmePd1mXqVLekqEprJ%3DYfYBdptA%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000076ca84064222d698 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Oct 27, 202= 5 at 12:22=E2=80=AFAM <dathonohm@= proton.me> wrote:
James= on -

You mention "technical concerns" but don't giv= e any examples. Would you mind sharing one?


Two of the biggest tech= nical concerns are that the proposed changes are confiscatory for certain s= cripts and the fact that the reactive chain reorganization logic actually m= akes it possible for anyone to trivially double spend their coins by trigge= ring a reorganization.
=C2=A0
You also mention "the underlying implication of u= sing legal coercion to require miners and other network participants to com= ply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks", but I don't think = the BIP implies this at all.

I quote the BIP:
"rejecting this softfork may subject you to legal or moral con= sequences"

This vague, hand waving fear monge= ring is the underlying implication of legal coercion to which I referred. I= t's not appropriate for a technical specification.

=

The BIP merely highl= ights a legal risk Bitcoin Core 30 has created for node operators for no go= od reason, and attempts to eliminate it. No "coercion" is implied= . You and anyone else who are fine shouldering this risk are free to stay o= n the old data-friendly chain. I doubt you will have much company, though.<= /div>

Best,

Dathon

On Sunday, October 26th, 2025 at 2:49 PM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com= > wrote:
It's quite clear from the PR discussion th= at there are a multitude of contentious issues at play with this proposal.<= div>
Even aside from all of the technical concerns, the under= lying implication of using legal coercion to require miners and other netwo= rk participants to comply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks makes i= t a non-starter in my opinion.

On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 3:43=E2=80=AFPM= dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Hi list -

Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has= become necessary to move forward on luke-jr's ML proposal to temporaril= y limit arbitrary data at the consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks wit= h no objections:

ht= tps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017

The idea is to strongly re-affirm in consensus that bit= coin is money, not data storage. It is implemented as a temporary softfork = that can activate in one of two different ways: proactive, or reactive.

After a year, the soft fork= expires, giving us time to come up with a more permanent solution.<= /div>

The timeline is a bit tight, bu= t I think everyone has incentives to support a quick and orderly activation= .

<= /div>
Please feel free to leave = a comment on the PR or reach out to me over email with any feedback.
=

There is much work still to do, so if you have some = technical skills and would like to join in the effort with dev/testing, ple= ase reach out as well.
Bitcoin is money.
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
Sincerely,

= Dathon Ohm

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