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[2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-42b53e7bd38si352693f8f.2.2025.11.18.22.58.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Nov 2025 22:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoinerrorlog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62c; Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b735487129fso1017805466b.0 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2025 22:58:13 -0800 (PST) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV3PcZBJwrdIe/gK6lnQzbkGfzx5neD3SZ7mVaKezKM44i7bYEsrOVzlyz+mfkyEjzdYqaugn/E7Jov@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuAhmeiFSk/9FSmrfSjF5L0yVxRO+M3Lsb0iG+BZbpxaZcH5NQUMEVeN4jgTxX pv1kd76gPkmwbChXNxeK/gogO3vEB0gQweG0a2AYOdV1H0rUyfhE4y9xGA3wsnQacHVQDr7S4du +oebur4OJ5IXRpvZ/t/rmiJpFbGU22sy5n7r+3+EKUJp0x7+xW0dnHqS1jmuZm9XaWkfpGKbyGp h3CyIGmnVxxeZZBRy7no0eT0iUPWWS5gJfBVJ3j1+Cb9sVxSpCybo5hB/dIrSh17F4c8DunFVMp AOhA2E4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c10b:b0:b3b:5fe6:577a with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b73677ece6fmr1749805966b.8.1763535492570; Tue, 18 Nov 2025 22:58:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <205b3532-ccc1-4b2f-964f-264fc6e0e70b@murch.one> <3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16ccb1cc91@dtrt.org> In-Reply-To: From: Bitcoin Error Log Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 06:58:00 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bnH5DZ78gTbVs_H_I3O7bu7OcppM8iD5B8Rl1trQ7RVRPb06jeMoHD95b0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Motion to Activate BIP 3 To: Greg Maxwell Cc: "David A. Harding" , Murch , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009563370643ed1afc" X-Original-Sender: bitcoinerrorlog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=LDhXyRR3; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoinerrorlog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoinerrorlog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000009563370643ed1afc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few years ago, I had this idea that bitcoin divisibility needed to be fixed as a misconception. I put it (proto-bip177) in our bitcoin wallet app, promoted the idea where I could. It worked great, but only our users knew. And then AI became good enough to use for some things. AI has been a HUGE unlock for me and my learning and creating style. Early this year, I told my AI, filled with context about the upcoming BIP3 standard, and examples of related BIPs, to make a BIP for me that properly expressed all of the nuances of my idea on how to handle removal of decimals in a UX. It looked pretty good, but AI wasn't as good as it is today, and the formatting was total slop. Thankfully, most of the BIP reviewers are actually amazing people, and I was able to contact them directly and ask for help, because I'm not an actual developer (yet). After some private help, it was good enough for the mailing list, and a real draft. BIP 177 is a very simple BIP compared to most, and I'd probably make it better if I started today, but ... it exists! It might be the first/only (?) vibe-BIP, and, as of last week, due to Cashapp and Square support, it's possible that BIP 177 is now in more people's hands than not. Today, I now have several private drafts of BIPs I am working on with AI, I am trying to impose less slop on my peers as I work in private. These newer BIPs are increasingly technical, and I have also started vibe-coding implementations to test them, and I continue growing into an engineer. Now the BIP repo is my favorite part of Bitcoin and interacting with Bitcoin Core. I feel sincere gratitude to three BIP reviewers specifically for humoring my sincere, yet not matured, effort and desire to improve Bitcoin without changing consensus code. My vision for the BIP repo and reviewers, and AI, is much different than yours. It is part of the story that brought me closer to Bitcoin development, and deep respect to my superiors for tolerating me while I was/am fledgling. Please don't add more weird subjective, exclusive barriers just because AI is warping reality. Deal with it, and please, please, continue making an effort to not only guard the BIP repo, but ensure it remains a fertile ground where Bitcoin Core maintains an attitude of being great stewards to the people, not only the specs. After all, we will need people to replace you some day, and those people need role models too. ~John Carvalho On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 1:18=E2=80=AFAM Greg Maxwell w= rote: > No doubt *you* are able to make good documents with or without the aid of > AI. > > With outright AI 'authorship' you immediately run into potential copyrigh= t > issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by" prohibition, > otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient. > > Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare maximized by permitting LLM > glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it's benign, I > readily agree, in others its harmful. But the number of good submissions > that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (being limited by > expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potential poor > submissions is increased astronomically. So I think it's pretty clearly = a > net harm to have text authored that way. > > I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiting step in > writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at times it's > possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship much easier > ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to using it to author. > > There is a particularly clear pattern at least with current LLM tools tha= t > users who lack the skills to have authored the work without an LLM are > generally unable to recognize when the LLM is full of crap (and even > sometimes when they should know better), so unfortunately they're only > benign to use in the hands of those whose need is the least. > > And as a reviewer outside of Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers to > be absolutely the worst to deal with. Because they're not submitting thei= r > own words and ideas, they're unable to change their thinking in response = or > explain sufficiently to change yours--- the interactions often degrade to > them just copy and pasting their chatbot back to you. Because it's cheap > to generate more text they also tend to flood you out with documents > several times longer than any human author would have bothered with. > > I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat to > most open collaborations: Now its so easy to get flooded out by subtly > worthless material. Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long struggle= d > with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by > thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and even > the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad as > the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been in t= he > past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals > before lunch without even breaking a sweat. > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding = wrote: > >> On 2025-11-04 15:10, Murch wrote: >> > Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed: >> > [...] >> > - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5 >> > [...] >> > =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2006 >> >> I strongly disagree with this change. If I were to begin working on a >> new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process. I'd ask it to >> help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it to >> create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever other >> work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me refine >> the document until I was satisfied. >> >> I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before submitting >> it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest quality >> work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of AI >> and human writing and editing. >> >> I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people who >> are less comfortable with writing technical English-language documents >> than I am. For example, non-native literates, people with disabilities >> that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're >> bad writers. >> >> The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, >> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality BIP >> PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content. I'm guessing the >> motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical >> content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore we >> should ban the use of AI. >> >> However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process >> already requires high-quality content.[2] AI-generated content can be >> high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a >> knowledgeable human. Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant and >> penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them >> effectively. >> >> I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006. >> >> -Dave >> >> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005 >> [2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is of >> **high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a pull >> request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/3a66dbbe9a9c46566c8a9a16ccb= 1cc91%40dtrt.org >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRV1aZ9xvAhBriZ%3DXdmY= f5CvrvXWXsjVD07uynivW_qkg%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAE2fw6vMPsqwy_e%2BE8yRt2MbnwbkC76dcEM1YY2qQHi5j1ZY0g%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000009563370643ed1afc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few years ago, I had this idea that bitcoin divisib= ility needed to be fixed as a misconception. I put it (proto-bip177) in our= bitcoin wallet app, promoted the idea where I could. It worked great, but = only our users knew.

And then AI became good enoug= h to use for some things. AI has been a HUGE unlock for me and my learning = and creating style. Early this year, I told my AI, filled with context abou= t the upcoming BIP3 standard, and examples of related BIPs, to make a BIP f= or me that properly expressed all of the nuances of my idea on how to handl= e removal of decimals in a UX.

It looked pretty go= od, but AI wasn't as good as it is today, and the formatting was total = slop. Thankfully, most of the BIP reviewers are actually amazing people, an= d I was able to contact them directly and ask for help, because I'm not= an actual developer (yet). After some private help, it was good enough for= the mailing list, and a real draft.=C2=A0

BIP 177= is a very simple BIP compared to most, and I'd probably make it better= if I started today, but ... it exists! It might be the first/only (?) vibe= -BIP, and, as of last week, due to Cashapp and Square support, it's pos= sible that BIP 177 is now in more people's hands than not.=C2=A0
<= div>
Today, I now have several private drafts of BIPs I am wo= rking on with AI, I am trying to impose less slop on my peers as I work in = private. These newer BIPs are increasingly technical, and I have also start= ed vibe-coding implementations to test them, and I continue growing into an= engineer.=C2=A0

Now the BIP repo is my favorite p= art of Bitcoin and interacting with Bitcoin Core. I feel sincere gratitude = to three BIP reviewers specifically for humoring my sincere, yet not mature= d, effort and desire to improve Bitcoin without changing consensus code.

My vision for the BIP repo and reviewers, and AI, is= much different than yours. It is part of the story that brought me closer = to Bitcoin development, and deep respect to my superiors for tolerating me = while I was/am fledgling.=C2=A0

Please don't a= dd more weird subjective, exclusive barriers just because AI is warping rea= lity. Deal with it, and please, please, continue making an effort to not on= ly guard the BIP repo, but ensure it remains a fertile ground where Bitcoin= Core maintains an attitude of being great stewards to the people, not only= the specs.=C2=A0

After all, we will need people t= o replace you some day, and those people need role models too.

~John Carvalho

=
On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 1:18=E2=80=AFAM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
No doubt *you* are able to make good documents with or without the aid of = AI.

With outright AI 'authorship' you imme= diately run into potential=20 copyright issues-- which I think is the origin of the "generated by&qu= ot;=20 prohibition, otherwise I think disclosure would be sufficient.
Taking a step back: is Bitcoin's welfare=C2=A0maximized by= permitting LLM glurge submissions in standards documents? In some cases it= 's benign, I readily agree, in others its harmful.=C2=A0 But the number= of good submissions that could be made would hardly be increased by LLMs (= being limited by expert proposers with good ideas) but the number of potent= ial poor submissions is increased astronomically.=C2=A0 So I think it's= pretty clearly a net harm to have text authored that way.

I've never had an impression that drafting was at all a limiti= ng step in writing BIPs, though even to the extent that it has been at time= s it's possible to use LLMs in a review capacity to make authorship muc= h easier ("What's missing / unclear?") without resorting to u= sing it to author.

There is a particularly clear pattern at l= east with current LLM tools that users who lack the skills to have authored= the work without an LLM are generally unable to recognize when the LLM is = full of crap (and even sometimes when they should know better), so unfortun= ately they're only benign to use in the hands of those whose need is th= e least.=C2=A0=C2=A0

And as a reviewer outside of = Bitcoin I've found LLM powered proposers to be absolutely the worst to = deal with. Because they're not submitting their own words and ideas, th= ey're unable to change their thinking in response or explain sufficient= ly to change yours--- the interactions often degrade to them just copy and = pasting their chatbot back to you.=C2=A0 Because it's cheap to generate= more text they also tend to flood you out with documents several times lon= ger than any human author would have bothered with.

I think LLMs have generally created something of an existential threat to= most open collaborations: Now its=C2=A0so easy to get flooded out by subtl= y worthless material.=C2=A0 Many projects, including, Bitcoin have long str= uggled with review capacity being limited and a far amount of time waste by= thoughtless (or even crazy!) submissions, but now it's automated and e= ven the most well meaning person may now make submissions that are as bad a= s the most deviously constructed malicious submissions could have been in t= he past, not even know they are doing it, and can make a dozen proposals be= fore lunch without even breaking a sweat.



On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 12:06=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> wrote:
On 2025-11-04 15:10, M= urch wrote:
> Summary of changes since BIP=E2=80=AF3 was advanced to Proposed:
> [...]
> =C2=A0 - that BIPs submissions may not be generated by AI/LLM=E2=81=B5=
> [...]
> =E2=81=B5 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2006

I strongly disagree with this change.=C2=A0 If I were to begin working on a=
new BIP today, I would use AI throughout the process.=C2=A0 I'd ask it = to
help me create a todo list of what should go in the BIP; I'd ask it to =
create a draft based on existing BIPs, my todo list, and whatever other work products I had (e.g. prototypes); I'd then ask it to help me refin= e
the document until I was satisfied.

I would, of course, review every word of the draft BIP before submitting it for consideration and ensure that it represented the highest quality work I was able to produce---but the ultimate work would be a mix of AI and human writing and editing.

I think considerate use of AI would be even more valuable for people who are less comfortable with writing technical English-language documents
than I am.=C2=A0 For example, non-native literates, people with disabilitie= s
that make text input difficulty, and those who recognize that they're <= br> bad writers.

The PR forbidding AI doesn't go into any detail about its motivation, <= br> although it references a previous discussion[1] where a low-quality BIP PR was opened using mostly AI-generated content.=C2=A0 I'm guessing the=
motivation is that AI (by itself) generates low-quality technical
content, BIPs should be high-quality technical content, and therefore we should ban the use of AI.

However, as mentioned in the previous discussion, the BIP process
already requires high-quality content.[2]=C2=A0 AI-generated content can be=
high-quality, especially if its creation and editing was guided by a
knowledgeable human.=C2=A0 Banning specific tools like AI seems redundant a= nd
penalizes people who either need those tools or who can use them
effectively.

I advocate for reverting the first hunk of BIPs repository PR 2006.

-Dave

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2005
[2] "After fleshing out the proposal further and ensuring that it is o= f
**high quality** and properly formatted, the authors should open a pull request to the BIPs repository." --BIP3, emphasis added

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