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[2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 38308e7fff4ca-381224d4e27si7046091fa.1.2026.01.03.05.32.41 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Jan 2026 05:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::132 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::132; Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5943d20f352so13551405e87.0 for ; Sat, 03 Jan 2026 05:32:41 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: AY/fxX56UE7hf64jJcCUtL7u1qPuqfnkYHyyQUoRpmChArYIlZ/lbnRYvGZgMKZP6A/ k7LS+vG8WWv3BFETr8PNDPZR08skeu++UbOtf0Y7o7dB+OAg6zEfF4irS6NJV+Ka7lqpX1tRD1B LigkhwJy4FsEA/Y/3Bm8zlWHvfTBvSel9hkHc1DwqxmVvcoQ0nIDbvJCtnY5/dBnOcL9f7pi9sz ZOGMlbAwbR6HV8SEoGkMuNDOO4Zb8BlHQr2t9rZctaQtnPxPEcocPYZtN+AcZTQKcWv5w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:131c:b0:59a:1152:57d9 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-59a17d722bdmr12913761e87.6.1767447160557; Sat, 03 Jan 2026 05:32:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Chris Stewart Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:32:29 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AQt7F2r8QbzYlI6Vw62Ir6wW_mB627H4eBB6XvzLSdH_OFnPQX8JkBQkauCYd1E Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Bbitcoindev=5D_Re=3A_Funding_model_question_=E2=80=94_unpa?= =?UTF-8?Q?id_exploratory_work_at_intake?= To: Able One Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com, nic.anthony@pm.me, "abubakar@btrust.tech" , "mike@brink.dev" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a12b206477bdc64" X-Original-Sender: stewart.chris1234@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=X8KQfKSD; spf=pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::132 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stewart.chris1234@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) --0000000000002a12b206477bdc64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Able One, I think this is an interesting topic. Over the past few years, I=E2=80=99ve= been working intermittently on proposals for 64-bit arithmetic [0] and amount locks [1], which I think fall squarely into this category. If I were sitting on a grant committee, I would want to see soft-fork proposals designed as modular components that can be reused as part of larger soft forks. When the same functionality is reimplemented across multiple proposals, that=E2=80=99s usually a strong signal that the feature= is broadly needed. The work I cited above was inspired by the OP_TAPLEAFUPDATEVERIFY soft-fork proposal [2]. I deconstructed that larger proposal into smaller, independent pieces. Two of those pieces were: - Adding 64-bit arithmetic to Script to properly handle satoshi amounts, and - Introducing an opcode (OP_INOUT_AMOUNT) to push amounts onto the stack. After doing this, I realized that there are several other proposals in the space that could reuse this same functionality [3][4][5]. Because of this, I think funding work on small, reusable components that can be composed into =E2=80=9Clarger=E2=80=9D soft forks could be both usef= ul and interesting. Below are objective milestones that a grantee could complete, with funds disbursed at each stage. Some of these milestones I=E2=80=99ve already achi= eved with the cited proposals; others are still TODO: *Level 1:* Implement the proposal in a language of choice (Python, C++, Rust, etc.). *Level 2:* Write a BIP describing the soft-fork proposal. *Level 3:* Implement the BIP in the latest Bitcoin Core release, including Python and/or C++ test cases. *Level 4:* Produce static test vectors for the BIP [6] and integrate them into a second Bitcoin implementation (e.g., btcd, bitcoin-s, bcoin). *Level 5:* Validate the proposal by using it *inside* larger soft-fork proposals. This would involve forking existing soft-fork code, removing the original implementation of the relevant feature, and rebuilding the larger proposal using the new modular component. Examples of this approach can be found in [3][4][5]. To give a concrete example of work that could be done, there is a competing proposal to my 64-bit arithmetic proposal for arbitrary length precision in Script[7]. You could implement[3][4][5] with the arbitrary length precision proposal rather than my 64-bit arithmetic proposal to validate that the features satisfy the requirements of users of the BIP. Best, Chris Stewart [0] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/64-bit-arithmetic-soft-fork/397/51 [1] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549 [2] - https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/20210909064138.GA22496@erisian.com.au/ [3] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/6?u=3Dchris_stewart_= 5 [4] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/5?u=3Dchris_stewart_= 5 [5] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/9?u=3Dchris_stewart_= 5 [6] - https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2015 [7] - https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/GisTcPb8Jco/m/jxl8aX0XAQAJ On Thu, Jan 1, 2026 at 8:34=E2=80=AFAM Able One wrote= : > Hi all, > > > Reposting from the subscribed address =E2=80=94 apologies for the earlier= bounce. > > Now that I=E2=80=99m properly subscribed, I wanted to repost the question= with a > brief, self-contained summary to avoid wasting anyone=E2=80=99s time. > > *Summary of the situation* > I=E2=80=99ve been speaking with a few Bitcoin-adjacent grant administrato= rs about > whether *paid exploratory work / experiment framing at intake* is > considered acceptable within open-source funding models. > > The consistent response I received was that exploratory framing at intake > is *unpaid by definition* =E2=80=94 funding decisions are made only after= work is > already scoped, framed, or partially completed by the applicant. > > That raised a broader design question for me, independent of any single > organization: > > *The question* > =E2=80=A2 Is expecting unpaid exploratory framing at intake a sane and su= stainable > grants model for open-source ecosystems? > =E2=80=A2 What incentive failures does this create (e.g., selection bias,= wasted > contributor time, shallow proposals)? > =E2=80=A2 Are there alternative structures that fairly price early judgme= nt > without turning grants into VC or bounties? > > I=E2=80=99m not asking any org to defend itself here, and no one involved= needs to > reply. I=E2=80=99m genuinely interested in how people with long experienc= e in > Bitcoin and open-source view this trade-off. > > Any perspective =E2=80=94 supportive or critical =E2=80=94 is appreciated= . > > Best, > Nic > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAO-13RDhh4CSG3DBFjU0wrOt%2B= h18_oFHNQHEJKL1nPj0VL-2Dw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAGL6%2BmFqwC8ySFs3A0xQSzyhqYa%2B5EH1_q5cBmvGCeu57KHqEg%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000002a12b206477bdc64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Able One,

I think this is an interesting topic= . Over the past few years, I=E2=80=99ve been working intermittently on prop= osals for 64-bit arithmetic [0] and amount locks [1], which I think fall sq= uarely into this category.

If I were sitting on a grant committee, I = would want to see soft-fork proposals designed as modular components that c= an be reused as part of larger soft forks. When the same functionality is r= eimplemented across multiple proposals, that=E2=80=99s usually a strong sig= nal that the feature is broadly needed.

The work I cited above was in= spired by the OP_TAPLEAFUPDATEVERIFY soft-fork proposal [2]. I deconstructe= d that larger proposal into smaller, independent pieces. Two of those piece= s were:

  • Adding 64-bit arithmetic to Script to properly handle= satoshi amounts, and

  • Introducing an opcode (OP_INOUT_AMOUNT= ) to push amounts onto the stack.

After doing this, I reali= zed that there are several other proposals in the space that could reuse th= is same functionality [3][4][5].

Because of this, I think funding wor= k on small, reusable components that can be composed into =E2=80=9Clarger= =E2=80=9D soft forks could be both useful and interesting.

Below are = objective milestones that a grantee could complete, with funds disbursed at= each stage. Some of these milestones I=E2=80=99ve already achieved with th= e cited proposals; others are still TODO:

Level 1: I= mplement the proposal in a language of choice (Python, C++, Rust, etc.).Level 2: Write a BIP describing the soft-fork proposal.Level 3: Implement the BIP in the latest Bitcoin Core re= lease, including Python and/or C++ test cases.
Level 4:= Produce static test vectors for the BIP [6] and integrate them into a seco= nd Bitcoin implementation (e.g., btcd, bitcoin-s, bcoin).
Level = 5: Validate the proposal by using it inside larger soft-f= ork proposals. This would involve forking existing soft-fork code, removing= the original implementation of the relevant feature, and rebuilding the la= rger proposal using the new modular component. Examples of this approach ca= n be found in [3][4][5].


To give a concrete example of wor= k that could be done, there is a competing proposal to my 64-bit arithmetic= proposal for arbitrary length precision in Script[7]. You could implement[= 3][4][5] with the arbitrary length precision proposal rather than my 64-bit= arithmetic proposal to validate that the features satisfy=C2=A0the require= ments of users of the BIP.

Best,
Chris Stewart


[0= ] -=C2=A0https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/64-bit-arithmetic-soft-fork/397/51

[1] -=C2=A0https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549

[2] -=C2= =A0https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/20210909064138.GA22496@erisian= .com.au/

[3] -=C2=A0https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout= -amount/549/6?u=3Dchris_stewart_5

[4] -=C2=A0https://delv= ingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/5?u=3Dchris_stewart_5

[5] -= =C2=A0https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/9?u=3Dchris_= stewart_5

[6] -=C2=A0https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2015

[7] -=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/GisTcPb8Jco/m/jxl8aX0XAQAJ<= /p>


On Thu, Jan 1, 2026 at 8:34=E2=80=AFAM Able One &l= t;able1plus@gmail.com> wrote:=

Hi all,


Reposting from the subscribed address =E2=80=94 apologies for the= earlier bounce.


Now that I=E2=80=99m properly subscribed, I= wanted to repost the question with a brief, self-contained summary to avoi= d wasting anyone=E2=80=99s time.

Summary of the situation
I=E2=80=99ve been speaking with a = few Bitcoin-adjacent grant administrators about whether=C2=A0paid exploratory work / experimen= t framing at intake=C2=A0is considered acceptable within open-source f= unding models.

The consistent response I receive= d was that exploratory framing at intake is=C2=A0unpaid by definition=C2=A0=E2=80= =94 funding decisions are made only after work is already scoped, framed, o= r partially completed by the applicant.

That rai= sed a broader design question for me, independent of any single organizatio= n:

The question
=E2= =80=A2 Is expecting unpaid exploratory framing at intake a sane and sustain= able grants model for open-source ecosystems?
=E2=80=A2 What incentive failures does this create (e.g., selection b= ias, wasted contributor time, shallow proposals)?
=E2=80=A2 Are there alternative structures that fairly price earl= y judgment without turning grants into VC or bounties?

I=E2=80=99m not asking any org to defend itself here, and no one inv= olved needs to reply. I=E2=80=99m genuinely interested in how people with l= ong experience in Bitcoin and open-source view this trade-off.

Any perspective =E2=80=94 supportive or critical =E2=80=94 = is appreciated.

Best,
Nic

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