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[2a00:1450:4864:20::629]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a640c23a62f3a-b6d86df40a1si12969966b.0.2025.10.26.20.39.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Oct 2025 20:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of earonesty@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::629; Received: by mail-ej1-x629.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b6d70df0851so546265566b.1 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 2025 20:39:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUYt6oRvgZrrA5DBgzn2bPhcvU87xxUywbt8SSdVvPuFJ0LanaggGU+r0TWEl1kc6WeuN7B8HxWmgrp@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvh8XUPSR0E7dwewsfnA4TtbWQnOOxl1okMpbKkruFeakAPWAGS+VzH5N4x13H XIjHfZ55OWpCqSzVzmVpF5Ft64X0OG5KIVpnV5hVitxEvjpO0pMJLkyrg9HotYSBkDPPSmuf6Pg qxkrpk9qCWFKgiPMzSUW+x4BWZ6nXU8Su7LDIAj1nGw/8Ljtni7NCL44xPn9IoE98DxtAFfFOL4 qj7KnhSzG0HIGNCRIJLcu3XlzUS1jPHphooqOd1DTz6sDl/OVts5d9H0HoypidyNCKu4d+3sT2c Svyuf13D+ZPmKF4P5dWi0gZXdc+37Nmo3k4gfd2M8FuT89GGEFHotenwFBSDZCoaGg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3f1d:b0:b6d:95b3:5881 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b6d95b39c57mr379335566b.33.1761536391338; Sun, 26 Oct 2025 20:39:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Erik Aronesty Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2025 20:39:39 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_blMbnNhnHYMPuFZ5AiDpVdQYGBQRENl9i8gQW4qH4JgN1480jBTwRj8l6U Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] op_return spam is beneficial To: nt yl , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd5e4d06421ba657" X-Original-Sender: erik@q32.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@q32-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=PYKLUmZF; spf=pass (google.com: domain of earonesty@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=earonesty@gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --000000000000dd5e4d06421ba657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable when blocks aren't full, fees are negligible, miners aren't sufficiently rewarded, and we risk hashpower decline if they remain not full, we should probably reduce the block size and improve the ability to securely share UTXOs so more people can use them On Sun, Oct 26, 2025, 5:52=E2=80=AFPM nt yl wr= ote: > Hi Erik > > As far as I understand - > > Bitcoin blocks aren=E2=80=99t all the same size - they only share a maxi= mum size > limit. > > OP_RETURN outputs don=E2=80=99t actually =E2=80=9Csave=E2=80=9D UTXOs; th= ey just create > unspendable outputs that never enter the UTXO set, while still adding to > the permanent blockchain size. > > That reduces memory load slightly but increases disk and bandwidth > requirements. So it=E2=80=99s not a free trade-off, and it=E2=80=99s misl= eading to suggest > OP_RETURN use has no decentralization cost. > > Dr D > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 7:46=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty wrot= e: > >> There is a strictly limited supply of money available for spam. ( >> Because if we don't assume this, then we have to assume that all financi= al >> transactions will get crowded out by infinite funds. ) >> >> Every time OP_RETURN is used, instead of other UTXO bearing transactions= , >> at least one UTXO is saved. UTXO spam is dangerous for decentralization >> (blockchain spam isn't since blocks are always the same size) >> >> Since spam funds are limited, this is money spent to boost hashpower, an= d >> removes money from the spam pool that would otherwise create UTXO bloat. >> >> Therefore it's irrational to prevent large (or at least multiple) being >> used for spam. >> >> The only reason to limit this opcode is to "virtue signal that Bitcoin i= s >> not intended to store data". >> >> And while this may have some benefits in the short term given the ongoin= g >> social attack against core maintainers, in the long term I think it migh= t >> have very negative repercussions to cave to a social attack that has lit= tle >> technical merit. >> >> However there is a serious issue with contiguous scriptlubkey data that >> doesn't have to do with government censorship. >> >> Apparently it is possible to produce L2 protocols that rely on the relay >> network and unconfirmed transactions. >> >> We need to be sure that minimum transaction fees are set quite high so >> that nodes are not relaying transactions that have no intention of being >> mined or paid for. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2B9EA%3Dg-i2QeTZYiO= W%3D%3D3AY0qihyPVdqJNtS910u7WzcA%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAJowKg%2BYzdfq%2B7fW0AVDxZ3HLe7UbPoOUeh6ejScaqqC%3DzdFrw%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000dd5e4d06421ba657 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
when blocks aren't full, fees are negligible, miners = aren't sufficiently rewarded, and we risk hashpower decline=C2=A0

if they remain not full, we should = probably reduce the block size

and improve the ability to securely share UTXOs so more people can u= se them=C2=A0

On Sun, Oct 26, 2025, 5:52=E2=80= =AFPM nt yl <wrapperband@g= ooglemail.com> wrote:
Hi Erik

As far as I understand -=C2=A0
Bitcoin blocks aren=E2=80=99t all the same size -=C2=A0 they only shar= e a maximum size limit.=C2=A0

OP_RETURN outputs don=E2=80=99t actual= ly =E2=80=9Csave=E2=80=9D UTXOs; they just create unspendable outputs that = never enter the UTXO set, while still adding to the permanent blockchain si= ze.=C2=A0

That reduces memory load slightly but increases disk and b= andwidth requirements. So it=E2=80=99s not a free trade-off, and it=E2=80= =99s misleading to suggest OP_RETURN use has no decentralization cost.
<= br>
Dr D

On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 7:46=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.c= om> wrote:
There is a strictly limited supply of money available f= or spam.=C2=A0 ( Because if we don't assume this, then we have to assum= e that all financial transactions will get crowded out by infinite funds. )=

Every time OP_RETURN is used,= instead of other UTXO bearing transactions, at least one UTXO is saved.=C2= =A0 UTXO spam is dangerous for decentralization (blockchain spam isn't = since blocks are always the same size)

Since spam funds are limited, this is money spent to boost h= ashpower, and removes money from the spam pool that would otherwise create = UTXO bloat.=C2=A0

Theref= ore it's irrational to prevent large (or at least multiple) being used = for spam.

The only reaso= n to limit this opcode is to "virtue signal that Bitcoin is not intend= ed to store data".=C2=A0

And while this may have some benefits in the short term given the ong= oing social attack against core maintainers, in the long term I think it mi= ght have very negative repercussions to cave to a social attack that has li= ttle technical merit.

Ho= wever there is a serious issue with contiguous scriptlubkey data that doesn= 't have to do with government censorship.

Apparently it is possible to produce L2 protocols tha= t rely on the relay network and unconfirmed transactions.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=

We need to be sure that minim= um transaction fees are set quite high so that nodes are not relaying trans= actions that have no intention of being mined or paid for.







=


<= div dir=3D"auto">

=

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