* [bitcoindev] op_return spam is beneficial
@ 2025-10-19 13:01 Erik Aronesty
[not found] ` <CAGvrRVK7hO9RQ==Q1_5xH7_HYar-EGPL_d3-wJ5q82vNDRHBiA@mail.gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 2+ messages in thread
From: Erik Aronesty @ 2025-10-19 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoindev
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There is a strictly limited supply of money available for spam. ( Because
if we don't assume this, then we have to assume that all financial
transactions will get crowded out by infinite funds. )
Every time OP_RETURN is used, instead of other UTXO bearing transactions,
at least one UTXO is saved. UTXO spam is dangerous for decentralization
(blockchain spam isn't since blocks are always the same size)
Since spam funds are limited, this is money spent to boost hashpower, and
removes money from the spam pool that would otherwise create UTXO bloat.
Therefore it's irrational to prevent large (or at least multiple) being
used for spam.
The only reason to limit this opcode is to "virtue signal that Bitcoin is
not intended to store data".
And while this may have some benefits in the short term given the ongoing
social attack against core maintainers, in the long term I think it might
have very negative repercussions to cave to a social attack that has little
technical merit.
However there is a serious issue with contiguous scriptlubkey data that
doesn't have to do with government censorship.
Apparently it is possible to produce L2 protocols that rely on the relay
network and unconfirmed transactions.
We need to be sure that minimum transaction fees are set quite high so that
nodes are not relaying transactions that have no intention of being mined
or paid for.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread[parent not found: <CAGvrRVK7hO9RQ==Q1_5xH7_HYar-EGPL_d3-wJ5q82vNDRHBiA@mail.gmail.com>]
* Re: [bitcoindev] op_return spam is beneficial [not found] ` <CAGvrRVK7hO9RQ==Q1_5xH7_HYar-EGPL_d3-wJ5q82vNDRHBiA@mail.gmail.com> @ 2025-10-27 3:39 ` Erik Aronesty 0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread From: Erik Aronesty @ 2025-10-27 3:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: nt yl, bitcoindev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3499 bytes --] when blocks aren't full, fees are negligible, miners aren't sufficiently rewarded, and we risk hashpower decline if they remain not full, we should probably reduce the block size and improve the ability to securely share UTXOs so more people can use them On Sun, Oct 26, 2025, 5:52 PM nt yl <wrapperband@googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi Erik > > As far as I understand - > > Bitcoin blocks aren’t all the same size - they only share a maximum size > limit. > > OP_RETURN outputs don’t actually “save” UTXOs; they just create > unspendable outputs that never enter the UTXO set, while still adding to > the permanent blockchain size. > > That reduces memory load slightly but increases disk and bandwidth > requirements. So it’s not a free trade-off, and it’s misleading to suggest > OP_RETURN use has no decentralization cost. > > Dr D > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 7:46 PM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote: > >> There is a strictly limited supply of money available for spam. ( >> Because if we don't assume this, then we have to assume that all financial >> transactions will get crowded out by infinite funds. ) >> >> Every time OP_RETURN is used, instead of other UTXO bearing transactions, >> at least one UTXO is saved. UTXO spam is dangerous for decentralization >> (blockchain spam isn't since blocks are always the same size) >> >> Since spam funds are limited, this is money spent to boost hashpower, and >> removes money from the spam pool that would otherwise create UTXO bloat. >> >> Therefore it's irrational to prevent large (or at least multiple) being >> used for spam. >> >> The only reason to limit this opcode is to "virtue signal that Bitcoin is >> not intended to store data". >> >> And while this may have some benefits in the short term given the ongoing >> social attack against core maintainers, in the long term I think it might >> have very negative repercussions to cave to a social attack that has little >> technical merit. >> >> However there is a serious issue with contiguous scriptlubkey data that >> doesn't have to do with government censorship. >> >> Apparently it is possible to produce L2 protocols that rely on the relay >> network and unconfirmed transactions. >> >> We need to be sure that minimum transaction fees are set quite high so >> that nodes are not relaying transactions that have no intention of being >> mined or paid for. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2B9EA%3Dg-i2QeTZYiOW%3D%3D3AY0qihyPVdqJNtS910u7WzcA%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2B9EA%3Dg-i2QeTZYiOW%3D%3D3AY0qihyPVdqJNtS910u7WzcA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2BYzdfq%2B7fW0AVDxZ3HLe7UbPoOUeh6ejScaqqC%3DzdFrw%40mail.gmail.com. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5257 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
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2025-10-19 13:01 [bitcoindev] op_return spam is beneficial Erik Aronesty
[not found] ` <CAGvrRVK7hO9RQ==Q1_5xH7_HYar-EGPL_d3-wJ5q82vNDRHBiA@mail.gmail.com>
2025-10-27 3:39 ` Erik Aronesty
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