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[2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-4324ea21b1csi3760f8f.4.2025.12.18.11.02.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Dec 2025 11:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of earonesty@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::234; Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-37b9728a353so11497181fa.0 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2025 11:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: AY/fxX7dfbyvP7tAEBj5LL5i8ZdE5GlaQxm7iwOhyx+sgpB3CVch6Vo2E7PS3fgqIGf PWkjTsi5zzizRxMaoNdBuxxif/ph9l4JEXsCmDDE73eApLPQEfN1fWR4IDLTM6RqNbQ+xbiORBq 3qcgZGPFCy9OwD+ZxNJecKSBjrmpY5G8PAB8K4oqv5esLUENsI4I/a7yJg5D/N6ET3tp7sYSV9t KeW9XFDGxW8fbHcOGDZQu1CNYKwXXO6eLeoJJGdyPxy/nT+k9PfZ6gF50CyDQzK8juSZ7HGkcyB /tRwrsmYlyR3dCmszWXjYjqjNkJy//8zJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:4199:b0:378:e3f9:2d26 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-38121674ef2mr957001fa.39.1766084520981; Thu, 18 Dec 2025 11:02:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Erik Aronesty Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 11:01:49 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AQt7F2pVhDoo7Ru9XKLgEFirSJMlpwvHX482XElsAQKsFed27yGd3kIG9EBG1FU Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] op_ctv still has no technical objections To: "/dev /fd0" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084387006463e98f4" X-Original-Sender: erik@q32.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@q32-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=FpJVb31B; spf=pass (google.com: domain of earonesty@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=earonesty@gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --00000000000084387006463e98f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, out of this meeting it was generally agreed that it's appropriate to propose a conservative activation mechanism, using BIP 9, with a long activation window and high miner threshold. Question: Do we need a new BIP, or should we update BIP119 with the new activation parameters? On Sat, Nov 29, 2025 at 3:08=E2=80=AFPM /dev /fd0 w= rote: > Hi Erik, > > We can organize a meeting to discuss the activation parameters and build > an activation client. If enough economic nodes and miners run the > activation client it will be activated with no further politics or drama. > > #ctv-csfs-activation IRC channel can be used for the meeting. > > /dev/fd0 > floppy disk guy > > On Thu, Nov 27, 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty wrot= e: > >> It's been many years and there's been a lot of discussion about various >> covenants >> >> I think one of the biggest problems is everyone has to insist on their >> baby is the best baby. >> >> op_ctv is quite literally not the best at anything. That's the whole >> point. It's non-recursive, can't be used for strange or dangerous thing= s, >> and can be used to emulate a lot of other opcodes. >> >> It's adequate. And I don't think we want anything "better" than adequat= e >> the first time around. lnhance is more comprehensive. but also it's so >> much harder to reason about three separate op codes and what the attack >> surface could be. >> >> I don't think it's possible to optimize a series of covenants for all >> possible scenarios. Easy to make them too powerful and now nodes are do= ing >> too much work and we're attracting the kind of network activity that nob= ody >> wants. >> >> Fortunately the risk of CTV is fairly low. It's always possible to turn >> it off (no new tx)... if there's a game theory issue. >> >> I don't think there's any particular rush, but we could lose a lot of >> fees and support for miners if Bitcoin continues to do what it is doing >> now... scaling almost entirely in custodial systems. That's also just n= ot >> the Bitcoin that anyone loves. >> >> At this point it feels like it's "perfect is the enemy of the good". >> >> We have an old and rather well tested pull request that is only a handfu= l >> of lines of code that everyone has scrutinized a million ways. >> >> I don't think we're getting that for any other covenant opcode. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2BcCoocSEYsTT3bLwte= %3D-3Kbzo5k6YT--UnDwzoZPF1wQ%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAJowKg%2BvDs3qb9uEvQpcYsDjtVnS34aUr5_zbZqPtnE8TXEuuw%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000084387006463e98f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, out of this meeting it was generally agreed that it= 's appropriate to propose a conservative activation=C2=A0mechanism, usi= ng BIP 9, with a long activation window and high miner threshold.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

Question:=C2=A0 Do we need a new BIP, or should we update BIP119= with the new activation parameters?


On Sat, N= ov 29, 2025 at 3:08=E2=80=AFPM /dev /fd0 <alicexbtong@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Erik,

We can organize a meeting to discuss the activation parameters and build= an activation client. If enough economic nodes and miners run the activati= on client it will be activated with no further politics or drama.

#ctv-csfs-activation IRC channel can be used for the meetin= g.

/dev/fd0
floppy disk guy

On Thu, Nov 27= , 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote:
It's been many years= and there's been a lot of discussion about various covenants=C2=A0
I think one of the biggest proble= ms is everyone has to insist on their baby is the best baby.=C2=A0

op_ctv is quite literally not th= e best at anything.=C2=A0 That's the whole point.=C2=A0 It's non-re= cursive, can't be used for strange or dangerous things, and can be used= to emulate a lot of other opcodes.=C2=A0

=
It's adequate.=C2=A0 And I don't think we want an= ything "better" than adequate the first time around. lnhance is m= ore comprehensive.=C2=A0 but also it's so much harder to reason about t= hree separate op codes and what the attack surface could be.

I don't think it's possible t= o optimize a series of covenants for all possible scenarios.=C2=A0 Easy to = make them too powerful and now nodes are doing too much work and we're = attracting the kind of network activity that nobody wants.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Fortunately the risk of CTV = is fairly low.=C2=A0 It's always possible to turn it off (no new tx)...= if there's a game theory issue.=C2=A0

I don't think there's any particular rush, but w= e could lose a lot of fees and support for miners if Bitcoin continues to d= o what it is doing now... scaling almost entirely in custodial systems.=C2= =A0 That's also just not the Bitcoin that anyone loves.

At this point it feels like it's = "perfect is the enemy of the good".=C2=A0=C2=A0

We have an old and rather well tested pul= l request that is only a handful of lines of code that everyone has scrutin= ized a million ways.=C2=A0

I don't think we're getting that for any other covenant opcode.= =C2=A0=C2=A0


<= div dir=3D"auto">






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