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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 46e09a7af769-7c90fbf5b78si237779a34.7.2025.11.29.15.08.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Nov 2025 15:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of alicexbtong@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::334 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::334; Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7c75fd8067fso1771298a34.2 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2025 15:08:29 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuY+kiOMCzNEErvyDhAPJLGMCH2+MeFanQ2BAERMxRIXZZSrTfqS5Kj51NZzZ+ d6k2hscBxujWw81yppikXrPhKo/KvaJ+S1r6DbMQZB0D8o82CXdU55fqutXfEtSnJuFcscPyhrz hgsWAepoqdb4Kwi886MKBxKVQiv+CpD1IPPhiwuEQ2ZgDr3xhGVE3R6q2k+0TgHeLecrzqpY+om 1xrErng7/6B4267ocQR4Y/lxLq7nlvQYOYfii53w8H58NdFAO97gZdhJ2JouVslGkRYL3CJW9SD VGHHWHif75qh+XM0vuRntw0JUOBJi730vbVUEm+WZuf8PoOCO4xBn481oC27DfSv7fwxQyMRQDh xcM69v2axIL79q9q8jM+WgmmARSNmIOqooIcnrX1xco43 X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:4493:b0:450:d504:928a with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4514e845ca7mr9046431b6e.66.1764457708757; Sat, 29 Nov 2025 15:08:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "/dev /fd0" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2025 04:38:27 +0530 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bkw_iMuz6aE1uf1Iz22RBlqlDGIg1YXoY3QAlhyIzrUf5_WyEIeHAeDXkU Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] op_ctv still has no technical objections To: Erik Aronesty Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3a6680644c3d238" X-Original-Sender: alicexbtong@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=aLlaoulI; spf=pass (google.com: domain of alicexbtong@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::334 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=alicexbtong@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000f3a6680644c3d238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Erik, We can organize a meeting to discuss the activation parameters and build an activation client. If enough economic nodes and miners run the activation client it will be activated with no further politics or drama. #ctv-csfs-activation IRC channel can be used for the meeting. /dev/fd0 floppy disk guy On Thu, Nov 27, 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty wrote: > It's been many years and there's been a lot of discussion about various > covenants > > I think one of the biggest problems is everyone has to insist on their > baby is the best baby. > > op_ctv is quite literally not the best at anything. That's the whole > point. It's non-recursive, can't be used for strange or dangerous things= , > and can be used to emulate a lot of other opcodes. > > It's adequate. And I don't think we want anything "better" than adequate > the first time around. lnhance is more comprehensive. but also it's so > much harder to reason about three separate op codes and what the attack > surface could be. > > I don't think it's possible to optimize a series of covenants for all > possible scenarios. Easy to make them too powerful and now nodes are doi= ng > too much work and we're attracting the kind of network activity that nobo= dy > wants. > > Fortunately the risk of CTV is fairly low. It's always possible to turn > it off (no new tx)... if there's a game theory issue. > > I don't think there's any particular rush, but we could lose a lot of fee= s > and support for miners if Bitcoin continues to do what it is doing now... > scaling almost entirely in custodial systems. That's also just not the > Bitcoin that anyone loves. > > At this point it feels like it's "perfect is the enemy of the good". > > We have an old and rather well tested pull request that is only a handful > of lines of code that everyone has scrutinized a million ways. > > I don't think we're getting that for any other covenant opcode. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKg%2BcCoocSEYsTT3bLwte%= 3D-3Kbzo5k6YT--UnDwzoZPF1wQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CALiT-ZrgNdMVs7mAWRhrXEqkyxXAdjE-gwjZfpv%3D2arzcSFopA%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000f3a6680644c3d238 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Erik,

We can organize a meeting to d= iscuss the activation parameters and build an activation client. If enough = economic nodes and miners run the activation client it will be activated wi= th no further politics or drama.

#ctv-csfs-activat= ion IRC channel can be used for the meeting.

/dev/= fd0
floppy disk guy

On Thu, Nov 27, 2025 at 2= :47=E2=80=AFPM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.c= om> wrote:
It's been many years and there's been a lot of = discussion about various covenants=C2=A0

I think one of the biggest problems is everyone has to insist on= their baby is the best baby.=C2=A0

op_ctv is quite literally not the best at anything.=C2=A0 That&= #39;s the whole point.=C2=A0 It's non-recursive, can't be used for = strange or dangerous things, and can be used to emulate a lot of other opco= des.=C2=A0

It's adeq= uate.=C2=A0 And I don't think we want anything "better" than = adequate the first time around. lnhance is more comprehensive.=C2=A0 but al= so it's so much harder to reason about three separate op codes and what= the attack surface could be.

I don't think it's possible to optimize a series of covenants= for all possible scenarios.=C2=A0 Easy to make them too powerful and now n= odes are doing too much work and we're attracting the kind of network a= ctivity that nobody wants.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Fortunately the risk of CTV is fairly low.=C2=A0 It's al= ways possible to turn it off (no new tx)... if there's a game theory is= sue.=C2=A0

I don't t= hink there's any particular rush, but we could lose a lot of fees and s= upport for miners if Bitcoin continues to do what it is doing now... scalin= g almost entirely in custodial systems.=C2=A0 That's also just not the = Bitcoin that anyone loves.

At this point it feels like it's "perfect is the enemy of the g= ood".=C2=A0=C2=A0

W= e have an old and rather well tested pull request that is only a handful of= lines of code that everyone has scrutinized a million ways.=C2=A0

I don't think we're gett= ing that for any other covenant opcode.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=







=

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