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[2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2adb3069b0e04-59e5f58dfecsi409426e87.3.2026.02.17.05.02.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of garlonicon@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62a; Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b8f9568e074so603755266b.0 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:02:47 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1771333366; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=SC1vVf/0sQkPKNXs/7F02pW7htz/g1HE0uXE99EIODDMfXwueGW/MvXiT9oFX5H7mD 2q+Yz7yo7P0PbICi9YRWaGSPmeTVhu3UBk16BAUguQpBp8+1iqY1ywVxQrP89HGsU8lF tIVvhZc/kmnjxsDmgMD/XyGyDVGLn85c9ToIHia3OdXGy/wcvqEX3r3tcfLKdt3CEgM/ 82HhqfyR6fMcq+t9W+k3sqLzPKvePC23cAjQGA7/3gH+BA/cs1P+Ydm8cAN418D5bQDE io9AewopRX/BU+eS29mAVp/oy2Ml2syDFJw0KWaoML3u63dbgN9lb0+Ain/E/djgfaXn lG0g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=ldljKF7xrKenGNUsEhcCsZRgffT0CpZpSQETy4ucJVU=; fh=wIK+Vs/EalTwwzLE+5JKmYLO7G0MIAv8IlEHEpouPBE=; b=iMHfAF+3oHDx1b+yino3BGPSkrfo6BetgwYKTVUo2cC32bT/NEUEhZp7NPtDT7IY60 4z0SiDxHeUnKRzPphZDjbpo5oGxuCq0gN0Ue8EqWIkPincsEsH2Bd3C+nh830PpsQigv dBK84JI9xkNHAjugu8TxVCWfxcreCvsDbKbcaXfwldErVMa173lxd16bCtwO/K/eA6TK /9cUIB7SCYb0WetiGhHvzLSoyYRYIyWOvPYIhieq65aw9yrSMA3RNjSN2Sc+Kj6BXevs oFM56t6UiqTV3mDK2SJ1Gjpaa9EFQ2EljZ23reOZRU0CztB9QkPExOAXgVDwUXZzg+c1 4blQ==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUaqzn3c0i8VB7Muf0fR1uw1NvYlFmx6lcTQAobbcEvt+4L4BR12GLq6L4/u+HgGVQA1t4at+awRImJ@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: AZuq6aJUxp9F4OM3vOfUsN5LwnTRQKm6fZStW/sprmONac7jbPx8i989blOV3Q9E+LP OTgFOknjym2ORx3quVFM4zewYeDGZI2gRRORuFTpaH2DC0PgPvE1ONZ+h3nBoc4QT2atp2j4tfr YD9HWIJYLLE3rX149WXI3RL3HQBHy1p3OegzzvuqmBTPLJsd4R4Ss11yL1h3Lfqxt/R6dure4// 7/ZH/cDruUh2t0t5gdZ842pcVsJKVN8KYACjhIxQ+ZbyMNw6NLOqKIW57t7Ks4MCWT/wXmgEL7a cx9RaehqMPNN5TMW X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7ba0:b0:b87:205c:1aa7 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b8fc3ca93d4mr544201866b.44.1771333366144; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:02:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b7a9377n@googlegroups.com> <57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65b6b61cf8a2@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Garlo Nicon Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2026 14:02:33 +0100 X-Gm-Features: AaiRm51a7uxmjwBoQYkCb3NdFwG9WrCId6kxc5yf9eZNoRhe6EVNQl2FD8qDYwA Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update To: Jameson Lopp Cc: Light , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001163d1064b04b029" X-Original-Sender: garlonicon@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=kUu1YFma; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of garlonicon@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=garlonicon@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000001163d1064b04b029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary. > Hourglass V2 further restricts the output amount to a maximum of 1 bitcoin per block, or roughly 144 bitcoin per day. This is far less than the 450 coins per day introduced by the current block reward subsidy, and should effectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum attacks on P2PK coins. It can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are based on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Which means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. It would still be arbitrary, but it would be more aligned with the explanation from the BIP, that it is all about how many coins are introduced into circulation, or assigned to miners. Or, if it would be based only on the basic block reward, without fees, then when all coins will be mined, P2PKs will automatically expire, because there won't be any amount, which is less than zero satoshis. Because things can be based on fees, but then, a large miner with many coins, could game the system, and turn some of his own coins into fees, only to unlock more P2PK coins. pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:11 Jameson Lopp napisa=C5= =82(a): > Bitcoin is ultimately a system of rules that are enforced by those who us= e > the system and hold the keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a sufficiently > large cohort of economic power within the system is interested in > protecting itself against massive liquidation events from malicious actor= s > who arguably are not the rightful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are in > place for them to do something about it. > > I like Hourglass V2 a lot more than V1. My primary complaint is that 1 BT= C > per block is somewhat arbitrary. It would be interesting to point to the > on-chain statistics of what P2PK UTXO spend volume we have seen in recent > years. > > Additionally, in the context of my own migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could > be complementary to the concept of offering a ZK quantum safe spending > option for folks who fail to migrate UTXOs to quantum safe scripts before= a > set deadline, given that these old P2PK outputs do not belong to HD walle= ts > and thus the owners would be incapable of constructing a ZK proof of HD > wallet ownership. > > On Fri, Feb 13, 2026 at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light wr= ote: > >> Bitcoin should not have an in-protocol plunge protection mechanism, and >> certainly not one that artificially restricts people's ability to spend >> their coins. I encourage you to withdraw this proposal, for the sake of >> bitcoin's integrity and utility as a p2p electronic cash system. >> >> On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote: >> > In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against >> > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further >> > limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block. >> > >> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.m= ediawiki >> > >> > Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal: >> > https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ >> > >> > Thoughts & feedback welcome! >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit >> > >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a84= 62b7a9377n%40googlegroups.com >> > < >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a84= 62b7a9377n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter >> >. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65b= 6b61cf8a2%40app.fastmail.com >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eb8byZs3VKORoUzaPoBvg= uSbxJ%3DKyKifsQFWFqyqHeRA%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAN7kyNh%3DqzAiGvDBpLSJLVt64smR%2BHQh%2Bw%2BHm3cZGebZejJsqw%40mail.gmail.co= m. --0000000000001163d1064b04b029 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somew= hat arbitrary.

> Hourglass V2 further restricts the output amount= to a maximum of 1 bitcoin per block, or roughly 144 bitcoin per day. This = is far less than the 450 coins per day introduced by the current block rewa= rd subsidy, and should effectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum a= ttacks on P2PK coins.

It can be replaced with something else. For ex= ample, if things are based on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be = wired into consensus. Which means, that if the current block reward is 3.12= 5 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and no= t more than that. It would still be arbitrary, but it would be more aligned= with the explanation from the BIP, that it is all about how many coins are= introduced into circulation, or assigned to miners.

Or, if it would= be based only on the basic block reward, without fees, then when all coins= will be mined, P2PKs will automatically expire, because there won't be= any amount, which is less than zero satoshis. Because things can be based = on fees, but then, a large miner with many coins, could game the system, an= d turn some of his own coins into fees, only to unlock more P2PK coins.
pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:11=C2=A0Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> napisa=C5= =82(a):
Bitcoin is ultimately a system of rules that are enforced by those= who use the system and hold the keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a suffici= ently large cohort of economic power within the system is interested in pro= tecting itself against massive liquidation events from malicious actors who= arguably are not the rightful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are in place= for them to do something about it.

I like Hourglass V2 = a lot more than V1. My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewha= t arbitrary. It would be interesting to point to the on-chain statistics of= what P2PK UTXO spend volume we have seen in recent years.

Additiona= lly, in the context of my own migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could be compleme= ntary to the concept of offering a ZK quantum safe spending option for folk= s who fail to migrate UTXOs to quantum safe scripts before a set deadline, = given that these old P2PK outputs do not belong to HD wallets and thus the = owners would be incapable of constructing a ZK proof of HD wallet ownership= .

On Fri, Feb 13, 2026 at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light <bitcoin-dev@lightco.in> wr= ote:
Bitcoin sho= uld not have an in-protocol plunge protection mechanism, and certainly not = one that artificially restricts people's ability to spend their coins. = I encourage you to withdraw this proposal, for the sake of bitcoin's in= tegrity and utility as a p2p electronic cash system.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote:
> In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further =
> limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block.
> https://github.= com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.mediawiki
>
> Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal:
> https://groups.google.com/g/= bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ
>
> Thoughts & feedback welcome!
>
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