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[2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-68ceb79133dsi258781a12.2.2026.06.02.09.23.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Jun 2026 09:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of garlonicon@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::530 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::530; Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-68c3421b009so6217368a12.1 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2026 09:23:06 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1780417386; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=RtK650wbZVBufvU9ZfTjLIr1KFtlEFxl9x5C91Jf8SNeHRJnpc2baxhNGh5fu7kcPj 1tC8z7J3gEpN56jhs93lBm50C/oANpsVEOEbucT62eMzrWmPkfkESfXvrEbE0gjr9pic Ga4UPF1XpOhW06v14ixqOgLUAhflMZ31ZbufT2nyxWrTGF52GofvHcdgWyGQYSfBhccR PSCLAINuCf9+sm6Y5R16BeEpkYOCSkTS5h99rL4Dq9j1FCLgMZMoHyp8RcyO5RQ7CqC0 C3h0Zir+20dKr5/UuhIzGpFduerE+Gu4gX95tY70z7HT5AYx3YJ/ETXADQNeRx4NPK3s InLw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=7E92z5m+Wcde/Xh3iy3kBIjhhwG0w+2SKpkQOK7LqyY=; fh=tBb/m7TL0/dZxkWyf4hYxTMmfXzHhKmqQjVrFEJC5H8=; b=T7hIlML2g6WI53sJU12gpPcaUIUyQjnaMt45C/cANdOtEgXIY0vBL0OtpSoh8QfPT7 3eEnc07tc9gHTx+L+g7Bnjj1WkqhMRLSzZmUdVidwVStrB/auDZkbi7fdSkP2et1zuj0 M+pu/gXoiUQFPezhI8HEXayJANbOgv3mlNR4Ofs+Mhi8gHm828FvGeIflB362+UK9cfO dHLYFk+qQb1vhSEpjY+8UsBEqQU4BeKZZht9rRktgrvo3ivD1QJXW2NZpQJfvYs12q2d 7BgqLSLV8czRyUB9bClBPSR4ygFql//3Jr3Eh4erititgx1oe3vBO1GI441kIwNR32xt IvIQ==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AFNElJ9eqlgfBvz1jgTtiAWXHZq0I60/mmwYqEa7kLgcWfpsQpjx3VS4+4viewp/Xqmbm6NGd7UdIFe/WyWo@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: Acq92OGD70hVPgYJntfzMtVcvvdroHzWuXcEge86dg5wYnt+aVxfpCdgkORM58cdHqc O9OgWn/ipLF+PbHmLkNc8A/fqYUL7dmckLsRJort2J+CZDvZrw8WtFKaF3wLWdCx6BPCH3GMUVB ThqPKK0KyHZEQq2QtytI26FBZaC2kT3bsGJVQzP57pjUjDuQsczeKeYqGLf2jy9N7rND4jrTOMt +Dpq/etKZCI6V/1UvsAzqbjMC7kjq/kn26TyOnXcvye7jxPZVAAwMSCHpyn9OaTtNIho5xB13Az cIZF1lJbfKT2aSwBEA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:6024:b0:beb:4d05:9a0a with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-beefbffe095mr183057366b.15.1780417385382; Tue, 02 Jun 2026 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Garlo Nicon Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2026 18:22:54 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AVHnY4J6KgP_TY9PEsU5w-xP5O3THS1ws75Tz4kCO4-017Dm0uFRbzxVWOc6iRg Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Draft] Testnet 5 To: Saint Wenhao Cc: Pol Espinasa , "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cec7fd065347b984" X-Original-Sender: garlonicon@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20251104 header.b=oC77apXP; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of garlonicon@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::530 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=garlonicon@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000cec7fd065347b984 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > coins being too difficult to mine without a lot of hash rate It could be easily solved, if blocks with regular difficulty would replace the min-difficulty ones. Because the current rule forces all miners, with CPUs, GPUs, ASICs, or anything else, to produce a min-difficulty block after 20 minutes. However, there are many different ways to handle that. For example: after 20 minutes, block with any difficulty could be accepted, but could be reorged by stronger miners later. Then, the network would never be stuck. Or: to discourage mining low-difficulty blocks, the amount of the coinbase could be adjusted, proportionally to the difficulty. You don't have hashpower, to mine a block with 1M difficulty, and receive 50 tBTC? No problem, mine million times easier block, get 5k tBTC for testing, and do your tests. If stronger miner will appear, they will have a chance to reorg you, but the same is true in testnet3 and testnet4. > I wonder if the goal of having a clone of mainnet with worthless coins is even possible. Currently, even signet coins are traded for mainnet BTCs, so probably not. By the way: I wonder, if there are any tests, where testnets like testnet3 or testnet4 are still needed. Because most things can be covered by regtest and signet. And if someone needs to test mining, then coins can be locked to a Proof of Work in many ways, and then, miners could claim them, by solving such puzzle. And it works even on mainnet, all you need is using OP_SIZE on a DER signature, to reach an arbitrary difficulty: https://github.com/adambor/btc-pow-locked-outputs/ So, are there any use cases, where testnet5 is needed, and signet cannot be used? wt., 2 cze 2026 o 17:05 Saint Wenhao napisa=C5=82(a= ): > > I am sharing a BIP draft for a new Testnet5. > > Interesting. Does it mean, that testnet4 fixes won't be done? > https://batmanbytes.github.io/testnet4-softfork/ > > > For the Pubkey field, use a recent Bitcoin mainnet block hash. > > Do you mean taking the hash of the block, and using it as x-value for a > public key? Then, it could be potentially spendable, if it would be a val= id > secp256k1 point, and people would send more coins to it, or unspendable, = if > it would be outside of the curve. For example: > > spendable: > 0200000000000000000001799c6f72ebe5ebc6b18fd5cdf8bd3697b8d73d01b084 > OP_CHECKSIG > unspendable: > 02000000000000000000013ac2955a2b6029bc1a86ab4b19e01e8030ceb0eeb2ae > OP_CHECKSIG > unspendable: > 00000000000000000001799c6f72ebe5ebc6b18fd5cdf8bd3697b8d73d01b084 OP_CHECK= SIG > > Also, if the size of the stack push would be different than 33 or 65 > bytes, then it would be unspendable (for example if it would take 32 byte= s, > like block hashes, and would be followed by OP_CHECKSIG, to invalidate it= , > or if it would start with OP_RETURN). > > > Difficulty: 0x1d00ffff > > I wonder, how quickly it would be listed on exchanges, and traded. Becaus= e > historically, new testnets were launched, when that happened. But today, > new coins are listed faster, than they are replaced. Which would give the > creator with any ASIC an incentive, to mine initial 30k or so blocks, kee= p > them for a while, and then sell for BTCs, when the coin will be listed. > > Also, I wonder if testnet5 will have any premine. Previous attempt to > create testnet5: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5543921 > > > Testnet 5 also does not apply the difficulty exception rule from Testne= t > 3 or Testnet 4 requires. > > It would be nice to simplify the code, and remove that rule completely > from sources, but it would probably take a while to deprecate testnet3 an= d > testnet4. > > wt., 2 cze 2026 o 13:27 'Pol Espinasa' via Bitcoin Development Mailing > List napisa=C5=82(a): > >> Dear list, >> >> I am sharing a BIP draft for a new Testnet5. >> People are complaining about Testnet4 being difficult to use, the new >> testnet also works as a miner playground for BIP54, we are killing two >> birds with one stone. >> >> You can find the full text to read and comment on in the following draft >> PR: https://github.com/fjahr/bips/pull/2 >> Feel free to leave inline comments there or respond here on the list. >> >> >> Pol >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/BrgqDZiNhpEz32-Z9ZX2rrPDE9E= UIb62SKT2WsTo-yZtd3gLMLVk6TkO6kLIR96-87TumXqi92l_m1j3xlJr1tcJwG_I3UVDk2NZgX= ZL8fw%3D%40protonmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CACgYNOKGG1ht-2deT3jP81BzMrc= qYd8tTL-tXeX-Z5sugUngJw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAN7kyNiH_8hnBmxBR8rPc%2BwYwbKPRy51yif3jRXofHbFFKsSgQ%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000cec7fd065347b984 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> coins being too difficult to mine without a lot of ha= sh rate

It could be easily solved, if blocks with regular difficulty= would replace the min-difficulty ones. Because the current rule forces all= miners, with CPUs, GPUs, ASICs, or anything else, to produce a min-difficu= lty block after 20 minutes. However, there are many different ways to handl= e that. For example: after 20 minutes, block with any difficulty could be a= ccepted, but could be reorged by stronger miners later. Then, the network w= ould never be stuck.

Or: to discourage mining low-difficulty blocks,= the amount of the coinbase could be adjusted, proportionally to the diffic= ulty. You don't have hashpower, to mine a block with 1M difficulty, and= receive 50 tBTC? No problem, mine million times easier block, get 5k tBTC = for testing, and do your tests. If stronger miner will appear, they will ha= ve a chance to reorg you, but the same is true in testnet3 and testnet4.
> I wonder if the goal of having a clone of mainnet with worthless = coins is even possible.

Currently, even signet coins are traded for = mainnet BTCs, so probably not. By the way: I wonder, if there are any tests= , where testnets like testnet3 or testnet4 are still needed. Because most t= hings can be covered by regtest and signet. And if someone needs to test mi= ning, then coins can be locked to a Proof of Work in many ways, and then, m= iners could claim them, by solving such puzzle. And it works even on mainne= t, all you need is using OP_SIZE on a DER signature, to reach an arbitrary = difficulty: = https://github.com/adambor/btc-pow-locked-outputs/

So, are there= any use cases, where testnet5 is needed, and signet cannot be used?
<= br>
wt., 2 cze 2026 o 17:05=C2=A0Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):<= br>
> I am sharing a BIP draft for a new Testnet5.

Interesting. Does= it mean, that testnet4 fixes won't be done? https://batmanbytes.gi= thub.io/testnet4-softfork/

> For the Pubkey field, use a rece= nt Bitcoin mainnet block hash.

Do you mean taking the hash of the bl= ock, and using it as x-value for a public key? Then, it could be potentiall= y spendable, if it would be a valid secp256k1 point, and people would send = more coins to it, or unspendable, if it would be outside of the curve. For = example:

spendable: 0200000000000000000001799c6f72ebe5ebc6b18fd5cdf8= bd3697b8d73d01b084 OP_CHECKSIG
unspendable: 02000000000000000000013ac295= 5a2b6029bc1a86ab4b19e01e8030ceb0eeb2ae OP_CHECKSIG
unspendable: 00000000= 000000000001799c6f72ebe5ebc6b18fd5cdf8bd3697b8d73d01b084 OP_CHECKSIG
Also, if the size of the stack push would be different than 33 or 65 bytes= , then it would be unspendable (for example if it would take 32 bytes, like= block hashes, and would be followed by OP_CHECKSIG, to invalidate it, or i= f it would start with OP_RETURN).

> Difficulty: 0x1d00ffff
I wonder, how quickly it would be listed on exchanges, and traded. Because= historically, new testnets were launched, when that happened. But today, n= ew coins are listed faster, than they are replaced. Which would give the cr= eator with any ASIC an incentive, to mine initial 30k or so blocks, keep th= em for a while, and then sell for BTCs, when the coin will be listed.
Also, I wonder if testnet5 will have any premine. Previous attempt to cre= ate testnet5: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5543921
> Testnet 5 also does not apply the difficulty exception rule from = Testnet 3 or Testnet 4 requires.

It would be nice to simplify the co= de, and remove that rule completely from sources, but it would probably tak= e a while to deprecate testnet3 and testnet4.

wt., 2 cze 2026 o 13:27=C2=A0&= #39;Pol Espinasa' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroup= s.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
<= span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Dear list,

I am sharing a BIP draft for a new Testnet5.
<= div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">People are complaining abou= t Testnet4 being difficult to use, the new testnet also works as a miner pl= ayground for BIP54, we are killing two birds with one stone.

You can find the full text to read and comment on i= n the following draft PR:=C2=A0https://github.com/fjahr/bips/pull/2
Feel free to leave = inline comments there or respond here on the list.


Pol

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