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[2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-47763e4f88fsi646675e9.1.2025.11.07.19.44.11 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Nov 2025 19:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jose.edil@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52c; Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-641458f71ffso2080003a12.3 for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 19:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctCxAhoYbI5LLCTVYaD/mLP2/W17JFRJJfSdSukpROu9zszYfPLpgCVRFCiZWX roj4RR8T5/35NtgKzaqHd8eoREInMMzGVGn+ZNAEJLNAYbtz+K71OrU7Msi6XQSw96GkE/ynBKh Px5HWXW6BQfT7G7RXF92kNn2mC9u06akaloHhCXK0U+pyKuRxe7qGAF6AdWnuYfOofSHquuGJSb tZXX7lbaaB1J6cgdPv6QjRss9JIboR/uGppYstf5ev8C3INgZ7IgN1wHm1lZthOdCcQkG9DJEr7 Bu/i7H6mkMDhB6Gmtw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:4559:b0:63c:4537:75c0 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-6415ea4e1fbmr919736a12.38.1762573450903; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 19:44:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7U8YuMopR73k4XRYBA8DjhaGLJkyKPuXpxW9p7vmH45JHEyIj_oE_t4xk99hrNdvMGghpmooAMXOmWGaZ4UkwHPndzrpzIL0SX2SoTf0l3w=@proton.me> <7abf7055-6b85-492f-ada2-e0a517e93cf9n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 00:43:59 -0300 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bneYY9wZ-Ml6JStjYCjBjsHerqfQ5pQvrddEm09yhdrwYJKrH_uvf2yD9M Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Reduced Data Temporary Softfork Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e846a06430d1ca8" X-Original-Sender: jose.edil@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=bZPDbJXU; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jose.edil@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jose.edil@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) --0000000000006e846a06430d1ca8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > 1. "Missing code": The code is now public here: > https://github.com/UASF/bitcoin/tree/29.2.knots20251010%2BBIP444 (plea= se > note that, while there are references to "BIP-444" in the code, that i= s > just a placeholder and I will update it to whatever number the BIP edi= tors > decide). > > Wanted to have a glimpse at the code, but it looks like this repo doesn't build on top of eeb9cc1120661d0e9fd28ddb6fef2c04992a4666 which I understand is the knots release = in which this is supposed to be based considering the name of the branch. So, I have no idea how one can review this (under the assumption that they reviewed or trusts the Knots release). BTW, I only noted now that commits on the Knots repo (and thus this) have no signatures other than Core devs' or Datonohm's (an account that was created 2 weeks ago?). Em sex., 7 de nov. de 2025 =C3=A0s 21:58, dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List escreveu: > Hi all - > > BIP repo maintainers requested > that > I update this list before pushing a significant change, so I am doing tha= t > now. > > Please consider this my formal request for the BIP PR to be unlocked so > that discussion can resume. > > This update addresses several concerns from the previous draft: > > > 1. "Funds confiscation": due to the presence of UTXOs that would be > made temporarily unspendable by this proposal, commenters were concern= ed > that this would set a precedent of "confiscation". This new draft reso= lves > this concern by adding a UTXO height check to make sure *only UTXOs > that are created while the softfork is active will be made temporarily > unspendable*. The "OP_IF in Tapscript" and "257-byte control block > limit" were the two main proposed rule changes that caused concern her= e. > 2. "This doesn't block all possible methods of arbitrary data > insertion": This was already addressed in the previous draft, but to > reiterate: this proposal's goal is not to block *all*=E2=80=8B methods= of > arbitary data insertion, just the most commonly abused ones. > 3. "Blocks other softfork upgrades while active": This was also > addressed in the original draft, but to reiterate: it's unlikely that = any > softfork upgrades will be ready to activate within one year anyway, so= this > doesn't matter much. But also, the fact that this softfork expires cre= ates > an opportunity to activate a more permanent and elegant upgrade that t= urns > on what the community wants, while continuing to reject data storage a= s a > supported use case, after one year. > 4. "Reactive deployment risks": These concerns have been addressed by = *removing > the reactive deployment method entirely*. I still think activating > this softfork is a matter of some urgency, but I think it still achiev= es > its goals if we move steadily towards activation within a few months. > 5. "Missing code": The code is now public here: > https://github.com/UASF/bitcoin/tree/29.2.knots20251010%2BBIP444 (plea= se > note that, while there are references to "BIP-444" in the code, that i= s > just a placeholder and I will update it to whatever number the BIP edi= tors > decide). > 6. "Temporary expiry risks": "Requires another consensus change before > expiry or rules lapse": Yes, as stated in <3>, the community will have > to come together in a year either to extend these rules (which shouldn= 't be > difficult), or to activate something more permanent and less blunt. Th= e > expiry will *not* be a hardfork, contrary to some claims I've seen, > because opting into this deployment means opting into the expiry as we= ll, > so old nodes will follow new ones onto the unrestricted chain > 7. "Legal/process/conflict-of-interest concerns": all language about > legal risks has been stripped from the BIP. > > > I welcome any and all feedback, as I think this proposal or something > similar to it stands an excellent chance of gaining consensus and > activating, and I think if that happens, it could be curative for the > Bitcoin community. > > Thanks again for all of your feedback and support, it means a lot. > > Sincerely, > > Dathon > On Wednesday, October 29th, 2025 at 8:57 PM, Erik Aronesty > wrote: > > >> Case law in the USA regarding illegal content has always rested squarely >> on those who: > > > 1 - provide broad public access, in this case a company like OpenSEA > (which has had to block content) > 2 - the original author > > if punishing "relays" was a thing, then every CISCO router, SMTP relay an= d > DISCORD server that provided access would be in court all day long > > instead, it's the users of the illegal data and the publishers that > actually wind up in trouble - not the internet providers > > the bitcoin ledger is neither a browser or web server, nor is it an image > uploader. there is zero ability to view images built into the system > > and even if it was > > the purpose of this software is to be a distributed and effectively > uncensorable ledger. > > hopefully it doesn't change because someone launched a meme campaign with > vague threats of legal action > > if a transaction has /no reasonable expectation of being mined/ (too > expensive to validate, too large, too low fees), there's also no reason t= o > relay it > > this is probably the best way to set policy > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJowKgKBBa%2BvD%3D5X0VMV2OF= iBBM23Ok6nmvfoLTr8fia141%3DFQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/bJL7UshcsXUpiQiC85dQeafQrRvt= ovH1aRcUxggjD1S09Md9qWHi9GpJOBdcPGq2NNQMK2XK-REMVlWjHLkh3aKUIktnYQccUWqg0DH= gNXc%3D%40proton.me > > . > --=20 Edil --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CANJiN3Li9c29_7DRjf6s10%3Dprn7HP6g9MPG5UMvq2HN1N1izTA%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000006e846a06430d1ca8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  1. "Missing code": The code is now public here:= =C2=A0https://gith= ub.com/UASF/bitcoin/tree/29.2.knots20251010%2BBIP444=C2=A0(please note = that, while there are references to "BIP-444" in the code, that i= s just a placeholder and I will update it to whatever number the BIP editor= s decide).

Wanted to= have a glimpse at the code, but it looks like this repo doesn't build = on top of=C2=A0eeb9cc1120661d0e9= fd28ddb6fef2c04992a4666=C2=A0which I understand is the=C2=A0knots r= elease=C2=A0in which= this is supposed to be based considering the name of the branch.
=
So, I have no idea how one can review this (under the assumption that = they reviewed or trusts the Knots release).

BTW, I= only noted now that commits on the Knots repo (and thus this) have no sign= atures other than Core devs' or Datonohm's (an account that was cre= ated 2 weeks ago?).

Em sex., 7 de nov. de 2025 = =C3=A0s 21:58, dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>= escreveu:
Hi = all -

BIP repo maintainers requested that I update this list before pushing a significant chang= e, so I am doing that now.

Please consider this my formal request= for the BIP PR to be unlocked so that discussion can resume.

Thi= s update addresses several concerns from the previous draft:

  1. "Funds confiscation": due to the presence of = UTXOs that would be made temporarily unspendable by this proposal, commente= rs were concerned that this would set a precedent of "confiscation&quo= t;. This new draft resolves this concern by adding a UTXO height check to m= ake sure only UTXOs that are created while the softfork is active will b= e made temporarily unspendable. The "OP_IF in Tapscript" and = "257-byte control block limit" were the two main proposed rule ch= anges that caused concern here.
  2. "This doesn't block all possible methods of ar= bitrary data insertion": This was already addressed in the previous dr= aft, but to reiterate: this proposal's goal is not to block all= =E2=80=8B methods of arbitary data insertion, just the most commonly abused= ones.
  3. "= ;Blocks other softfork upgrades while active": This was also addressed= in the original draft, but to reiterate: it's unlikely that any softfo= rk upgrades will be ready to activate within one year anyway, so this doesn= 't matter much. But also, the fact that this softfork expires creates a= n opportunity to activate a more permanent and elegant upgrade that turns o= n what the community wants, while continuing to reject data storage as a su= pported use case, after one year.
  4. "Reactive deployment risks": These concerns have = been addressed by removing the reactive deployment method entirely. = I still think activating this softfork is a matter of some urgency, but I t= hink it still achieves its goals if we move steadily towards activation wit= hin a few months.
  5. "M= issing code": The code is now public here:=C2=A0https://github.com/UASF/bitcoin/tr= ee/29.2.knots20251010%2BBIP444=C2=A0(please note that, while there are = references to "BIP-444" in the code, that is just a placeholder a= nd I will update it to whatever number the BIP editors decide).
    6. =
  6. "Temporary expiry = risks": "Requires another consensus change before ex= piry or rules lapse": Yes, as stated in <3>, the communit= y will have to come together in a year either to extend these rules (which = shouldn't be difficult), or to activate something more permanent and le= ss blunt. The expiry will not be a hardfork, contrary to some claims= I've seen, because opting into this deployment means opting into the e= xpiry as well, so old nodes will follow new ones onto the unrestricted chai= n
  7. "Legal/proce= ss/conflict-of-interest concerns":=C2=A0all language about lega= l risks has been stripped from the BIP.

I welc= ome any and all feedback, as I think this proposal or something similar to = it stands an excellent chance of gaining consensus and activating, and I th= ink if that happens, it could be curative for the Bitcoin community.
<= div>
Thanks again for all of your feedback and support, it me= ans a lot.

Sincerely,

Dat= hon
On Wednesday, October 29th, 2025 at 8:57 PM, Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote:
=
Case law in the USA regarding illegal content has always rested squarel= y on those who:

1 - provide broad public access, in t= his case a company like OpenSEA (which has had to block content)
2 - th= e original author

if punishing "relays" was a thing, then= every CISCO router, SMTP relay and DISCORD server that provided access wou= ld be in court all day long

instead, it's the users of the illeg= al data and the publishers that actually wind up in trouble - not the inter= net providers

the bitcoin ledger is neither a browser or web = server, nor is it an image uploader. there is zero ability to view images = built into the system

and even if it was

the purpose of this = software is to be a distributed and effectively uncensorable ledger.
<= br>hopefully it doesn't change because someone launched a meme campaign= with vague threats of legal action

if a transaction has /no re= asonable expectation of being mined/ (too expensive to validate, too large,= too low fees), there's also no reason to relay it

=
this is probably the best way to set policy

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Edil

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