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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-35fc3992b0bsi55058a91.0.2026.04.13.23.27.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Apr 2026 23:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigraw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35; Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-8a05c18d3e2so48182766d6.1 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2026 23:27:29 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1776148049; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=jiZiFzFQ8Da5wQt55vXLGtdolUC8U7xRXt6W0M45L2X5fE1I9XTvcHKbvIVZ8A/Ya6 eshFWLxLgiNpWNhuujUJnDq5pZdW2fQCdL0Jv94UgNtISxZMoIlFibvlv9fYAhiEtleW hizvK8ymDudE3IATYFOcRPfMLjBE3kQjozAS6VYTAJD6Nx+Dmhvug6CFBUx9IVkmY+QK efp0THvPG/XM5R1HE0ywgMrwzUP6Au3LjPET1ubm4zB+4vtVAfYx/bISMTUeyFlJx+FQ 8PWkePnHpPQoXOSB8Z0VpQtEcCz0omntAra9wxgyg8bujp4Ay0E/TeH8B+s4AdNtxPsN Te8w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=UpJYfA2fiYbqyIPQJ+fVOEnFRG+UPrkG/4zv1jw9Sjs=; fh=cRgdtQXkz2SVoRsfQ7/1fXzbcMVC7euMkEXdKPEuXWA=; b=L2jljXfdOg6bhOQleKtWsieMN7FbUu42LozXC6glih3mIbH5lt3ocazcVOuB17BLf8 HpXfKVsA86GGh65SA2pr2LtBNlWq9smk/OOp+h+D8beESgTk8e5GDDeIhIT3DqgbNqWZ Mmzps1JXJfC4zcoqa6AL4Rofa7D/3dECeZjfyVE3yXpkAZEMeaCzxcIiKD8OulYB2Txs 7v21h/GP4hjmXiwY3T+rgWGSEVKRErpk/amg8E0yp8OYktc2+PBn0SXit4A4rgMtXVeB v8ZNpPpraroaZG7v0EtrzWXjZ2T4FZyZAr3cojiem1LZO+EmRBLEt2uM0km0DGuIgzPz avTg==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none X-Gm-Gg: AeBDietShFqTK56nzlv4pu/P/212YzEk9GrJhJo+YCK+coCz+EB9XZ63e8NeHRI4/fR OWxQJgRPmNohTqDYfF7UZgOnlnYw4eIJSwRme2AJ+kmItlM40aNRH9NtAqKnqILczrLNm7l2Qxi +6qVKGWuosUTW5f6jyA26D9NrBu62i3qd8tvKzC0C1x5+8FC928hoqaDgCl2HKLQKJFdCrPCUWL 2Z642Yck1vcIEqfQlWdNjrs7wZXGLY3suYcdZerhY2GsWnVaSAqL/zo+n5pJ244CFF1ANdLbOBA bqmpsSkGrSH97ddaBGMAjjQCR4yimIfpng7/wnG0V6J2Lesckc31Qvtqt0i+qdZkNMMH X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:5f07:b0:8ac:a91c:c99 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-8aca91c138bmr104676886d6.29.1776148048482; Mon, 13 Apr 2026 23:27:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1a1491-06e1-4453-9538-fa66bc432a06n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1a1491-06e1-4453-9538-fa66bc432a06n@googlegroups.com> From: Craig Raw Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2026 08:27:16 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AQROBzDOI7CTe_DKSBs-dBqIe-PQGLnhk569YFjt69W_IRntwrctfu8ZThCvDO0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Draft] Blind Relay: Stateless Encrypted WebSocket Coordination for PSBTs To: Sean Carlin Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f93a3064f65b130" X-Original-Sender: craigraw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20251104 header.b=PqyqjOUS; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of craigraw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=craigraw@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000007f93a3064f65b130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sean, My feedback as follows: 1. I like the ephemeral approach to handling data, and view this as a near necessity for any interwallet communication scheme. 2. Payjoin v2 makes the specific tradeoff of privacy over performance, favouring OHTTP and HTTP polling to protect user IPs. Your approach using websockets does not protect from the relay learning the IP addresses of the participants. The draft says "This ID allows participants to distinguish between different connections/sessions in the room and audit log without the relay or other peers learning the user's IP address or permanent identity" - but in fact the relay does learn the user's IP address. On this point I lean towards privacy over performance, as I don't think real time response is needed here. Apart from protecting users, a privacy preserving approach also lowers the risk of running a relay. 3. The proposal focuses only on multisig PSBT sharing, but there are other interwallet communication use cases such as multisig setup and payment confirmations. In my opinion, addressing the challenge of interwallet messaging should be done as a series of BIPs to specify the transport separately from specific message protocols for various use cases. This allows for future extensibility by making each layer independently reviewable and upgradeable. 4. This proposal still relies on out-of-band sharing. The BIP draft specifically notes that out-of-band PSBT sharing is "heavy operational friction" but still requires out-of-band sharing for the room setup - which is essentially equivalent in complexity. In the case of multisig wallets, there is already private shared state in the multisig wallet setup, and in most cases the wallet client is already connected to a server of some kind. It seems to me that as it stands, this proposal will be replaced by one in future that takes advantage of these facts simply by virtue of being a more convenient user experience. Craig On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 2:21=E2=80=AFPM 'Sean Carlin' via Bitcoin Developme= nt Mailing List wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'd like to propose a new BIP for real-time, trust-minimized coordination > of multi-signature PSBTs. > > The Problem > Coordinating N-of-M Bitcoin transactions currently forces users into a > binary choice: > - Manual out-of-band transfers (USB drives, secure messengers) that > preserve privacy but introduce high friction and error risk, or > - Stateful coordination servers that offer good UX but act as privacy > honeypots, logging metadata, signer relationships, and often storing PSBT= s > on disk. > > The Proposal: Blind Relay > This BIP introduces a "Blind Relay" - an ephemeral, stateless, > zero-knowledge WebSocket relay. All payloads are encrypted client-side wi= th > AES-GCM-256, with decryption keys held exclusively in client-side URL > fragments (never sent to the server). The relay operates entirely in RAM > with a strict 24-hour TTL and self-destructs upon completion, providing > real-time coordination without persistent metadata or disk storage. > > A reference implementation has been running in production for three > months, successfully facilitating real multisig ceremonies. > > *Links* > - BIP Draft: > https://github.com/scarlin90/bip-stateless-psbt-coordination/blob/main/bi= p-draft.md > - Source Code: https://github.com/scarlin90/signingroom > - Live Client: https://signingroom.io > - Related Research Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.17875 > > I look forward to your technical feedback - especially on the > specification, security model, edge cases, and any suggested improvements= . > > Best regards, > Sean Carlin > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/3f1a1491-06e1-4453-9538-fa66= bc432a06n%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAPR5oBPQQGvanjTFm_RsLiVTtrympkuXkFY3eN-wHeqjnggcbw%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000007f93a3064f65b130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sean,
My feedback as follows:

1. I lik= e the ephemeral=C2=A0approach to handling data, and view this as a near nec= essity for any interwallet communication scheme.

2= . Payjoin v2 makes=C2=A0the specific tradeoff of privacy=C2=A0over performa= nce, favouring OHTTP and HTTP polling to=C2=A0protect user IPs. Your approa= ch using websockets does not protect from the relay learning the IP address= es of the participants. The draft says=C2=A0"This ID allows participan= ts to distinguish between different connections/sessions in the room and au= dit log without the relay or other peers learning the user's IP address= or permanent identity" - but in fact the relay does learn the user= 9;s IP address. On this point I lean towards privacy=C2=A0over performance,= as I don't think real time response is needed here. Apart from protect= ing users, a privacy preserving=C2=A0approach also lowers the risk of runni= ng a relay.

3. The proposal focuses only on multis= ig PSBT sharing, but there are other interwallet communication use cases su= ch as multisig setup and payment confirmations. In my opinion, addressing t= he challenge of interwallet messaging should be done as a series of BIPs to= specify the transport separately from specific message protocols for vario= us use cases. This allows for future extensibility by making each layer ind= ependently reviewable and upgradeable.

4. This pro= posal still relies on out-of-band sharing. The BIP draft specifically notes= that out-of-band PSBT sharing is "heavy operational friction" bu= t still requires out-of-band sharing for the room setup - which is essentia= lly equivalent in complexity.=C2=A0In the case of multisig wallets, there i= s already private shared state in the multisig wallet setup, and in most ca= ses the wallet client is already connected to a server of some kind. It see= ms to me that as it stands, this proposal will be replaced by one in future= that takes advantage of these facts simply by virtue of being a more conve= nient user experience.

Craig

=
On Wed, Ma= r 25, 2026 at 2:21=E2=80=AFPM 'Sean Carlin' via Bitcoin Development= Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'd like to prop= ose a new BIP for real-time, trust-minimized coordination of multi-signatur= e PSBTs.

The Problem
Coordinating N-of-M Bitcoin transactions cur= rently forces users into a binary choice:
- Manual out-of-band transfers= (USB drives, secure messengers) that preserve privacy but introduce high f= riction and error risk, or
- Stateful coordination servers that offer go= od UX but act as privacy honeypots, logging metadata, signer relationships,= and often storing PSBTs on disk.

The Proposal: Blind Relay
This = BIP introduces a "Blind Relay" - an ephemeral, stateless, zero-kn= owledge WebSocket relay. All payloads are encrypted client-side with AES-GC= M-256, with decryption keys held exclusively in client-side URL fragments (= never sent to the server). The relay operates entirely in RAM with a strict= 24-hour TTL and self-destructs upon completion, providing real-time coordi= nation without persistent metadata or disk storage.

A reference impl= ementation has been running in production for three months, successfully fa= cilitating real multisig ceremonies.

Links
- BIP Draft: https://github.com/scarlin90/bip-state= less-psbt-coordination/blob/main/bip-draft.md
- Source Code: https://git= hub.com/scarlin90/signingroom
- Live Client: https://signingroom.io
- Related Resea= rch Paper: h= ttps://arxiv.org/abs/2601.17875

I look forward to your technical= feedback - especially on the specification, security model, edge cases, an= d any suggested improvements.

Best regards,
Sean Carlin

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