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[2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-65bace408b9si247665a12.0.2026.02.17.05.24.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of isabel.duke@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62a; Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b883787268fso513127766b.3 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:24:54 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1771334694; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=PBeREegLYPRYiHi5IgNG+N84phWJQ6Jmd7TaiVwXkw++fZVfxxCvZBPp0nozx8k7gQ BzHwk6FY2EaGwrHPXAx85BIPrncYEajM/lP98FNq5jaIiOCHljeWyvzBqGGkemDWzEM9 e8sgc0JnaJpV6TKyYphJMKLkhcseXKQAXSzn11qNWBOxuNnr6qqFzYbu/SQKXkTKII/m +pfq26nTVccjaq8nCsN05Zcyvs2CDOCoOfgC+nsJ5VN5pcy4lTKzjNb+ORbledR6enCp czyt2eklp0Sg+IbPL5wX3fevcqBExZDny0ZoM/I/JJ+1Dh5Si/mQODja++HOcDt+fcM/ wbbQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=NZizTQ3MBcJvmcuaAPetLdxAsyog/Ts2rseLKV7v/YY=; fh=evSo7WK8whO2lfOp2Xf6U+Ot+BL5Qn4WcIxQzc3s/60=; b=SqewCatHZYhsm2Iw8Yy1lHzs8EeiF3clRUTsfYcpSsogWFJH/85loTvMijlvgv5CqL enNcogTJJn557MqAxvM9p3sDNHLxtJykhxxGt4zZKAnrTlMee/Ubg1/yTrHrNSs+oevb ed65k1nHv+rQHeHgy8pxZjjTEeT0XK+0k3MMb4S5yUeVLLstG8HfOhae0tu7sKlL1dac 758eFomqPmYhgWWODkj+g0FOY0xV8x77ydKwhTtBjwHrJIpCUXj+XRaEcq9sQ79VurVF X+gbSZteyRavkRsczG59XcDXqvwWTsSyvjWgl56G5+II4JTxu9E2/xHKCUPwmziNgnjH uNkA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWFdHE5dHdttxkt7+nu0K7f/e+MBpBMsw7G/wU3lREAFUzzGUJgWHNmQk57vL1zfJZogQAUHzezKtTO@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: AZuq6aIfmNFVV06pCbgKev71dwPoTOwtew+Z7Km9+4TUMAUgzXa1MGHttM4T4zz2TCO kybdqrx7A2+Y/GVPuATgELDLqJDEWqZepGUjEphqqH8x9YOGjb//V3zDPeOF8IPvYLjbXXrZ8Jy zEdE0Go0+8iV85ubvi4EJN3O4BMT8yy0qLk87zt5wRsmx7DeGLuEo/pDq8qUOkD8vrfVyGcsfWs GcDJS7ZGzuRRWJzLfRqFxwotYpJXBM9TSLRS3dmcLkba9JwxaM/BB4uiBFxueUHJDExRBhMGsYc nqRDaVv6rTePqkNW94EbdDbKpl0LFr91RxR5Ox0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3d9f:b0:b88:7431:3942 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b8fc3ca80f2mr632408366b.33.1771334693991; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 05:24:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b7a9377n@googlegroups.com> <57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65b6b61cf8a2@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Isabel Foxen Duke Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2026 09:24:41 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AaiRm5332r-pLtL9rSkTX_Be8XPwt0_JOVNyvKut_pF3O9ZD_fgaM1G3QMRvw1U Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update To: Garlo Nicon Cc: Jameson Lopp , Light , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036bad6064b04fffd" X-Original-Sender: isabel.duke@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=M6yreMUj; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of isabel.duke@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=isabel.duke@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000036bad6064b04fffd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > [1 BTC] can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are based on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Which means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. I don't mind this idea =E2=80=94 however, I worry it could add complexity f= rom a user experience perspective. 1 BTC might actually make sense and not be so arbitrary=E2=80=94as it will be an easy number for people to track and unde= rstand what coins they can move or are moving at any given time. Hyper-simplicity has UX and comms benefits. Isabel Foxen Duke Bitcoin Rails Podcast // X On Tue, Feb 17, 2026 at 9:11=E2=80=AFAM Garlo Nicon = wrote: > > My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary. > > > Hourglass V2 further restricts the output amount to a maximum of 1 > bitcoin per block, or roughly 144 bitcoin per day. This is far less than > the 450 coins per day introduced by the current block reward subsidy, and > should effectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum attacks on P2PK > coins. > > It can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are based > on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. Whi= ch > means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PK= s > can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. It would > still be arbitrary, but it would be more aligned with the explanation fro= m > the BIP, that it is all about how many coins are introduced into > circulation, or assigned to miners. > > Or, if it would be based only on the basic block reward, without fees, > then when all coins will be mined, P2PKs will automatically expire, becau= se > there won't be any amount, which is less than zero satoshis. Because thin= gs > can be based on fees, but then, a large miner with many coins, could game > the system, and turn some of his own coins into fees, only to unlock more > P2PK coins. > > pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:11 Jameson Lopp > napisa=C5=82(a): > >> Bitcoin is ultimately a system of rules that are enforced by those who >> use the system and hold the keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a sufficien= tly >> large cohort of economic power within the system is interested in >> protecting itself against massive liquidation events from malicious acto= rs >> who arguably are not the rightful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are in >> place for them to do something about it. >> >> I like Hourglass V2 a lot more than V1. My primary complaint is that 1 >> BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary. It would be interesting to point to >> the on-chain statistics of what P2PK UTXO spend volume we have seen in >> recent years. >> >> Additionally, in the context of my own migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could >> be complementary to the concept of offering a ZK quantum safe spending >> option for folks who fail to migrate UTXOs to quantum safe scripts befor= e a >> set deadline, given that these old P2PK outputs do not belong to HD wall= ets >> and thus the owners would be incapable of constructing a ZK proof of HD >> wallet ownership. >> >> On Fri, Feb 13, 2026 at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light w= rote: >> >>> Bitcoin should not have an in-protocol plunge protection mechanism, and >>> certainly not one that artificially restricts people's ability to spend >>> their coins. I encourage you to withdraw this proposal, for the sake of >>> bitcoin's integrity and utility as a p2p electronic cash system. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote: >>> > In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against >>> > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further >>> > limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block. >>> > >>> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.= mediawiki >>> > >>> > Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal: >>> > https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ >>> > >>> > Thoughts & feedback welcome! >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>> > an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > To view this discussion visit >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8= 462b7a9377n%40googlegroups.com >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8= 462b7a9377n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter >>> >. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/57bd09bc-1c1b-4605-82f9-65= b6b61cf8a2%40app.fastmail.com >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eb8byZs3VKORoUzaPoBv= guSbxJ%3DKyKifsQFWFqyqHeRA%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAN7kyNh%3DqzAiGvDBpLSJLVt64= smR%2BHQh%2Bw%2BHm3cZGebZejJsqw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAPZxKf%3DK5tHAjdgywUtivazhfz0HZ3KP2%2ByKOC4JiN6eFz6ZEQ%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000036bad6064b04fffd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0 [1 BTC] can be replaced with something els= e. For example, if things are based on the coinbase reward, then these rule= s can be wired into consensus. Which means, that if the current block rewar= d is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbas= e, and not more than that.

I don't mind this idea =E2=80=94 how= ever, I worry it could add complexity from a user experience perspective. 1= BTC might actually make sense and not be so arbitrary=E2=80=94as it will b= e an easy number for people to track and understand what coins they can mov= e or are moving at any given time. Hyper-simplicity has UX and comms benefi= ts.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

=
Isabel Foxen Duke=C2=A0=C2=A0



=
On Tue, Feb 17, 2026 at 9:11=E2=80=AFAM Garlo Nicon <garlonicon@gmail.com> wrote:
> = My primary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary.

= > Hourglass V2 further restricts the output amount to a maximum of 1 bit= coin per block, or roughly 144 bitcoin per day. This is far less than the 4= 50 coins per day introduced by the current block reward subsidy, and should= effectively mitigate the market impacts of quantum attacks on P2PK coins.<= br>
It can be replaced with something else. For example, if things are b= ased on the coinbase reward, then these rules can be wired into consensus. = Which means, that if the current block reward is 3.125 BTC plus fees, then = P2PKs can be limited to be X% of the coinbase, and not more than that. It w= ould still be arbitrary, but it would be more aligned with the explanation = from the BIP, that it is all about how many coins are introduced into circu= lation, or assigned to miners.

Or, if it would be based only on the = basic block reward, without fees, then when all coins will be mined, P2PKs = will automatically expire, because there won't be any amount, which is = less than zero satoshis. Because things can be based on fees, but then, a l= arge miner with many coins, could game the system, and turn some of his own= coins into fees, only to unlock more P2PK coins.

pon., 16 lut 2026 o 23:11= =C2=A0Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
Bitcoin is ultimat= ely a system of rules that are enforced by those who use the system and hol= d the keys to spend UTXOs. As such, if a sufficiently large cohort of econo= mic power within the system is interested in protecting itself against mass= ive liquidation events from malicious actors who arguably are not the right= ful owners of UTXOs, the incentives are in place for them to do something a= bout it.

I like Hourglass V2 a lot more than V1. My prim= ary complaint is that 1 BTC per block is somewhat arbitrary. It would be in= teresting to point to the on-chain statistics of what P2PK UTXO spend volum= e we have seen in recent years.

Additionally, in the context of my o= wn migration BIP, Hourglass V2 could be complementary to the concept of off= ering a ZK quantum safe spending option for folks who fail to migrate UTXOs= to quantum safe scripts before a set deadline, given that these old P2PK o= utputs do not belong to HD wallets and thus the owners would be incapable o= f constructing a ZK proof of HD wallet ownership.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2026= at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM Light <bitcoin-dev@lightco.in> wrote:
Bitcoin should not have an in-protocol= plunge protection mechanism, and certainly not one that artificially restr= icts people's ability to spend their coins. I encourage you to withdraw= this proposal, for the sake of bitcoin's integrity and utility as a p2= p electronic cash system.

On Tue, Feb 10, 2026, at 3:47 PM, Mike Casey wrote:
> In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against > potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further =
> limit spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block.
> https://github.= com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.mediawiki
>
> Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal:
> https://groups.google.com/g/= bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ
>
> Thoughts & feedback welcome!
>
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