From: dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
To: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Cc: Kyle Stout <kylestout85@gmail.com>,
Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Reduced Data Temporary Softfork
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2025 05:13:28 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <XFyaw5Bf4-4bAO3wBt3Wk2aSclxSGQ8n-uT4BR6ga864yMCf5Fe-xFQ8VnlYHH6bQ3s5jSQrfs02E-MNJbAXVmq3_vlQpgNcsOmiYTFwmcg=@proton.me> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgQRQWwX76o8QHjt8FoLxJiq1B-FgP+pehOL8PYhWgewbg@mail.gmail.com>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7880 bytes --]
Hi list -
Thanks for all of the feedback everyone!
I am working on a new draft of the BIP that will hopefully address everyone's concerns and avoid the misunderstandings that have arisen.
I apologize for not being able to respond to all of you, but know that I did indeed read your messages.
Best,
Dathon
On Monday, October 27th, 2025 at 1:58 PM, Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
> The only consensus normative data encoding in Bitcoin is the order data goes into hashes. The representations in memory, rpc, in the p2p network, etc. are already different and could be made arbitrarily different without any consensus change. Case in point: the data is now normally encrypted on disk and in P2P. There are also proposals such as BIP 337: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0337.mediawiki none of these things are consensus changes-- many aren't even bippable because they don't have interoperability considerations (e.g. representations on disk/memory).
>
> Forget for a moment the (un)likelyhood that the concerns being discussed are meaningfully modulated by exactly how data is represented in p2p, memory, rpc, disk, etc.. for assumption just assume they are.
>
> If so, the correct move would be to change those encodings rather than any consensus rule change--- particularly because any consensus rule method will simply be evaded, and can't provide the level of swizzling that changing the encoding can accomplish. Encoding changes are also substantially non-coercive: people who think they're valuable can adopt them and leave other people alone.
>
> Good news for everyone except those who consider coercing others to be a terminal goal.
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 6:35 PM Kyle Stout <kylestout85@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dathon,
>>
>>> if Bitcoin provides an officially supported method of storing arbitrary data (i.e., OP_RETURN), and the capacity of that method is large enough to store hazardous content in a contiguous format (an increase to 100kB is currently underway as Bitcoin Core 30 gains adoption), then one does not need to misinterpret the data in order to view the content.
>>
>> This seems to be the crux of your argument. I believe it is misleading and technically unsound. It's technical theater that creates a distinction without any meaningful difference.
>>
>> First, Bitcoin has no concept of a file viewer. To interpret any embedded data other to validate it against Bitcoin's rules, you must use a third party tool. Practically speaking, the differences are negligible in terms of technical difficulty, as humorously demonstrated here: https://x.com/rot13maxi/status/1963318690759192622 . Contiguous or not, you're file carving.
>>
>> Second, by definition, you're misinterpreting the data vis-a-vis Bitcoin since it has no native concept of 'image', 'video', etc. Arbitrary bytes are meaningless. The purpose of having OP_RETURN as a standard output is to protect the UTXO set from being abused. It isn't some kind of 'blessing' to store files. That's absurd. As you admit, it's impossible to stop people from writing arbitrary bytes to the blockchain, so this is damage mitigation, not an invitation.
>>
>> Third, contiguity is not a legally meaningful predicate. "Your honor, we tried to limit the contiguous bytes!" is simply not going to fly. The bytes exist either way, and they must be interpreted by third party software either way. If anything, this path is going to represent a voluntary self-policing that will result in more culpability. Right now, arbitrary bytes don't mean anything in Bitcoin. If it's valid, it's valid. Nodes relay opaque protocol data. If you insist on only accepting 'approved' arbitrary bytes, you're opening the door to a knowledge/intent accusation.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kyle
>>
>> On Monday, October 27, 2025 at 1:36:33 AM UTC-4 dath...@proton.me wrote:
>>
>>> Peter -
>>>
>>> Thank you for demonstrating what non-contiguous data looks like.
>>>
>>> I trust you when you say that you can parse the BIP's contents from this transaction, but all it looks like to me (and the Bitcoin network) is a UTXO broken into 31 pieces then (mostly) re-consolidated into a 0-length OP_RETURN, sending all ~100 USD in fees to the miner.
>>>
>>> Since legally hazardous content can be generated from any input data, including your 30-input consolidation transaction (as long as the correct third-party program is used), it would not make sense to hold node operators legally responsible for storing and distributing such input data.
>>>
>>> However, if Bitcoin provides an officially supported method of storing arbitrary data (i.e., OP_RETURN), and the capacity of that method is large enough to store hazardous content in a contiguous format (an increase to 100kB is currently underway as Bitcoin Core 30 gains adoption), then one does not need to misinterpret the data in order to view the content. In that case, node operators could conceivably be held responsible for possession and distribution.
>>>
>>> Since arbitrary data storage does nothing to benefit Bitcoin as permissionless money, there is no good reason to force this additional legal risk on node operators, who already face enough challenges as it is.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dathon
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 26th, 2025 at 4:43 PM, Peter Todd <pe...@petertodd.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 08:43:11PM +0000, dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hi list -
>>>> >
>>>> > Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has become necessary to move forward on luke-jr's ML proposal to temporarily limit arbitrary data at the consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks with no objections:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Transaction 8e2ee13d2a19951c2777bb3a54f0cb69a2f76dae8baa954cd86149ed1138cb6c
>>>> contains the full text of this BIP as of writing(1), while simultaneously being
>>>> compliant with that BIP.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly, this approach is ineffective.
>>>>
>>>> 1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/3c718237072c107ced8c3531a487354fbdae55df/bip-%3F%3F%3F%3F.mediawiki
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aP6gYSnte7J86g0p%40petertodd.org.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7abf7055-6b85-492f-ada2-e0a517e93cf9n%40googlegroups.com.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgQRQWwX76o8QHjt8FoLxJiq1B-FgP%2BpehOL8PYhWgewbg%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/XFyaw5Bf4-4bAO3wBt3Wk2aSclxSGQ8n-uT4BR6ga864yMCf5Fe-xFQ8VnlYHH6bQ3s5jSQrfs02E-MNJbAXVmq3_vlQpgNcsOmiYTFwmcg%3D%40proton.me.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12243 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-10-28 5:14 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 30+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-10-25 20:43 dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-10-26 20:47 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-10-27 4:22 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-10-27 12:14 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-10-27 16:35 ` TheWrlck
2025-10-26 22:27 ` Peter Todd
2025-10-27 3:41 ` Jal Toorey
2025-10-27 17:27 ` Max
2025-10-27 4:08 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-10-27 18:29 ` Kyle Stout
2025-10-27 19:56 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-10-28 5:13 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List [this message]
2025-10-30 0:31 ` Antoine Riard
2025-10-30 2:43 ` Erik Aronesty
2025-11-08 0:51 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-08 3:43 ` Edil Guimarães de Medeiros
2025-11-08 9:30 ` 'Bitcoin Eagle' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-08 15:38 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-11-08 16:40 ` Daniel Buchner
2025-11-08 17:55 ` Chris Riley
2025-11-08 21:02 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-08 21:39 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-11-09 20:07 ` dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-11 7:43 ` 'Bitcoin Eagle' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-11-11 16:23 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-11-09 1:21 ` Murch
2025-11-09 20:56 ` onyxcoyote
2025-11-09 21:34 ` Peter Todd
2025-11-10 19:46 ` Lucas Barbosa
2025-10-28 9:16 ` /dev /fd0
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to='XFyaw5Bf4-4bAO3wBt3Wk2aSclxSGQ8n-uT4BR6ga864yMCf5Fe-xFQ8VnlYHH6bQ3s5jSQrfs02E-MNJbAXVmq3_vlQpgNcsOmiYTFwmcg=@proton.me' \
--to=bitcoindev@googlegroups.com \
--cc=dathonohm@proton.me \
--cc=gmaxwell@gmail.com \
--cc=kylestout85@gmail.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox