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[206.125.169.165]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-661a3455eacsi25386a12.7.2026.03.06.07.46.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 06 Mar 2026 07:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of freedom@reardencode.com designates 206.125.169.165 as permitted sender) client-ip=206.125.169.165; Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2026 07:46:18 -0800 From: "'Brandon Black' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" To: Ian Quantum Cc: Mike Casey , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <9336f5a4-5c28-4c1b-af29-a8462b7a9377n@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hourglass V2 Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_46_61089789.1772811978569" X-Correlation-ID: X-Original-Sender: freedom@reardencode.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@reardencode.com header.s=mail header.b=Lngn7E+u; spf=pass (google.com: domain of freedom@reardencode.com designates 206.125.169.165 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freedom@reardencode.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=reardencode.com X-Original-From: Brandon Black Reply-To: Brandon Black Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------=_Part_46_61089789.1772811978569 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are no "buts" in YKYC. If coins haven't moved in 13 years they are buried treasure. New tech makes= finding that treasure easier but doesn't suddenly turn the gold to lead. Best, --Brandon, sent by an Android Mar 6, 2026 07:38:19 Ian Quantum : > YKYC but P2PK has been deprecated since a little in 2013 after I joined B= itcoin as one of the silent masses around 2010. What does 13 years of "depr= ecated" mean? >=20 > Fix the cryptography, remove the unlimited 'first class' status of the an= cient system. Maintenance should have a clear path to removing cruft, insec= urities and deprecated systems. P2PK is all 3.=C2=A0 > "Your keys, Quantum Attacker Crypto" is the alternative.=C2=A0 >=20 > On Tue, Mar 3, 2026, 22:25 'Brandon Black' via Bitcoin Development Mailin= g List wrote: >> Hi Mike, list. >>=20 >> My personal response to this type of proposal remains a firm, and >> time-unlimited, "no". >>=20 >> There are, broadly speaking, two possible ways in which secp256k1 >> breaks: Gradually and suddenly. >>=20 >> If it's gradually then the risks to P2PK, P2TR, and public public key >> (lol) coins grows gradually, most likely with some large outputs being >> stolen first and liquidated in some gradual way (because the first actor >> to have access to the break is likely a low time preference entity who >> doesn't want to crash the price). Moreover, assuming a gradual break, we >> will have long since deployed an alternative cryptosystem and everyone >> will have had ample time to migrate. Those coins not migrated are fair >> game. >>=20 >> If it breaks suddenly, that could put us in a situation where nobody has >> had a chance to migrate their coins AND the type of actors first gaining >> access to the coins are more likely to be low time preference dumpers >> who will fight each other for the coins using perverse miner incentives >> to protect some residual value. This itself would threaten the very >> tenability of the system. >>=20 >>=20 >> Bitcoin has long held the philosophy of NYKNYC which implies the >> reverse: YKYC. If we decided to break this for any but the most imminent >> and obvious destruction of the system, we have defeated the system's >> very raison d'=C3=AAtre. In other words, the only time we should limit o= r >> disable an old cryptosystem on bitcoin is in the greatest extremity of >> an immediate and total break of the cryptography wherein participants >> have not had time to migrate and the break is instantly widespread. >>=20 >> So, unless someone has access to secret evidence that secp256k1 is >> already broken (in which case we should be disabling all such signatures >> entirely, not trickling them through) we should absolutely not consider >> restricting the property rights of those using any secp256k1 signature. >> This is regardless of how we feel about public keys being public which >> is an entirely other topic. >>=20 >> For me to take a proposal of this general nature seriously, it would >> have to treat all secp256k1-protected outputs the same (as the >> supposed security of hashed output types relies strictly on public >> information being secret). >>=20 >> All the best, >>=20 >> --=20 >> --Brandon >>=20 >> On 2026-02-10 (Tue) at 12:47:22 -0800, Mike Casey wrote: >>> In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate against >>> potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to further l= imit >>> spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block. >>> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.= mediawiki >>> >>> Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal: >>> https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ >>> >>> Thoughts & feedback welcome! >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com[bitcoindev%2Bunsubscribe= @googlegroups.com]. >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/aadRUrmtko-uyvt2%40console. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= aa7f44d8-ef1d-4e33-bf67-4b2e451fe242%40reardencode.com. ------=_Part_46_61089789.1772811978569 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are no "= buts" in YKYC.

If coins h= aven't moved in 13 years they are buried treasure. New tech makes finding t= hat treasure easier but doesn't suddenly turn the gold to lead.

Best,
--Brandon, se= nt by an Android

Mar 6, 2026 07:38:19 Ian Quantum <ianquantum2027@gmail.com>:

YKYC but P2PK has been deprecated since a little in 2013 after I joine= d Bitcoin as one of the silent masses around 2010. What does 13 years of "d= eprecated" mean?=20

Fix the cryptography, remove the unlimited 'first class' status of th= e ancient system. Maintenance should have a clear path to removing cruft, i= nsecurities and deprecated systems. P2PK is all 3. 
"Your keys, Quantum Attacker Crypto" is the alternative. 

On Tue, Mar 3, 2026, 22:25 'Brandon Black' via Bitcoin Development Ma= iling List <bitcoindev@go= oglegroups.com> wrote:=20
Hi Mike, list.=20

My personal response to this type of proposal remains a firm, and=20
time-unlimited, "no".=20

There are, broadly speaking, two possible ways in which secp256k1=20
breaks: Gradually and suddenly.=20

If it's gradually then the risks to P2PK, P2TR, and public public ke= y=20
(lol) coins grows gradually, most likely with some large outputs bei= ng=20
stolen first and liquidated in some gradual way (because the first a= ctor=20
to have access to the break is likely a low time preference entity w= ho=20
doesn't want to crash the price). Moreover, assuming a gradual break= , we=20
will have long since deployed an alternative cryptosystem and everyo= ne=20
will have had ample time to migrate. Those coins not migrated are fa= ir=20
game.=20

If it breaks suddenly, that could put us in a situation where nobody= has=20
had a chance to migrate their coins AND the type of actors first gai= ning=20
access to the coins are more likely to be low time preference dumper= s=20
who will fight each other for the coins using perverse miner incenti= ves=20
to protect some residual value. This itself would threaten the very= =20
tenability of the system.=20


Bitcoin has long held the philosophy of NYKNYC which implies the=20
reverse: YKYC. If we decided to break this for any but the most immi= nent=20
and obvious destruction of the system, we have defeated the system's= =20
very raison d'=C3=AAtre. In other words, the only time we should lim= it or=20
disable an old cryptosystem on bitcoin is in the greatest extremity = of=20
an immediate and total break of the cryptography wherein participant= s=20
have not had time to migrate and the break is instantly widespread.= =20

So, unless someone has access to secret evidence that secp256k1 is= =20
already broken (in which case we should be disabling all such signat= ures=20
entirely, not trickling them through) we should absolutely not consi= der=20
restricting the property rights of those using any secp256k1 signatu= re.=20
This is regardless of how we feel about public keys being public whi= ch=20
is an entirely other topic.=20

For me to take a proposal of this general nature seriously, it would= =20
have to treat all secp256k1-protected outputs the same (as the=20
supposed security of hashed output types relies strictly on public= =20
information being secret).=20

All the best,=20

--=20
--Brandon=20

On 2026-02-10 (Tue) at 12:47:22 -0800, Mike Casey wrote:=20
> In response to feedback, the Hourglass proposal to mitigate aga= inst=20
> potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds has been enhanced to f= urther limit=20
> spend amounts from such outputs to only 1 bitcoin per block.=20
> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass-v2/bip-hourglass-v2.m= ediawiki
>=20
> Prior discussion of the original Hourglass proposal:=20
> https://gr= oups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/zmg3U117aNc/m/lDCMs9j7EAAJ
>=20
> Thoughts & feedback welcome!=20

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.=20
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, se= nd an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.c= om.=20
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aadRUrmtko-= uyvt2%40console.=20

--
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