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([2800:b20:170e:1a12:e9b6:295f:8f3b:4d4c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 71dfb90a1353d-55fdc5efc86sm6089873e0c.2.2025.12.15.02.35.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Dec 2025 02:35:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------zARkABjZjFnFOXvVFdqTo0Hj" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 03:35:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Cat, BIP draft discussion. To: Greg Maxwell , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: <32f8c689-314d-4a5e-9af6-2e3e704582e6n@googlegroups.com> <2ebbf019-a562-427d-93af-b88f0cf5658an@googlegroups.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Nona YoBidnes In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pepehodler@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=RFA+Ey+J; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pepehodler@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::a33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pepehodler@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------zARkABjZjFnFOXvVFdqTo0Hj Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg and list, Techniques to minimize usage are well understood, widely deployed, and the cost of storing data that way is very high so none happens except by those who are very motivated and financially capable (and that motivation and means results in speed bumps having little effect, -- or even positive effect, as the remaining abuses appear to find bitcoin's costs/restrictions highly desirable to create scarcity for their tokens). Here, your argument runs completely opposite of the claim that "the=20 miner fees are the filter". You appear to be claiming that dping nothing=20 about spam, making it easier for spammers and being more accommodating=20 to them is the way to go. Unfortunately, that's the approach we have=20 taken for the last 3 years while spam only gets worst. The reality is that making it harder, more costly, and less convenient=20 for spammers to keep going will result in less spam, not more. While=20 it's possible that the remaining spam might be valued higher by the=20 market, I don't really care about the price of spam, I only care to=20 reduce the amount of it, not the price. Less spam is the objective here.=20 I'm not concerned with the price of spam, only the quantity of spam. You seem to approach spam like a bullied kid, afraid that if we fight=20 back against spam, the big mean spam bully might spam us harder. I can't=20 accept this kind of approach. Bitcoin requires and adversarial mindset,=20 not one of compliance and submission when faced with an attacker. The proposed gain is some negligible one time reduction in utxo disk space. Between 40 and 50% of the UTXO set is comprised of spam UTXOs with dust=20 amounts. Even more conservative estimates put it at 30%. The Cat would=20 remove those spam NMUs from the UTXO set. I hardly view that as=20 negligible. Furthermore, The Cat would send a strong signal to spammers:=20 you are not welcomed on Bitcoin, we are rugging you, and we might do it=20 again. This likely would reduce future spam activity on Bitcoin, further=20 protecting the UTXO set. Were such a proposal seriously advanced it would likely cause a new flood of transactions both to move to evade it directly and as a result of NFT indexer changes to just "wormhole" the tokens to new outputs after the fact (and a new marketing opportunity=C2=A0for the NF= T gifters). As Claire already explained, with millions of cases of spam, this would=20 cause a massive block space demand increase and a large fee spike which=20 would prove very costly to spammers. And retaking a new snapshot would=20 force them to do it again. Someone needs to feed the poor miners! > NFTs are just an imaginary parallel world that don't depend on the=20 > network to validate their activity, so they don't really care about=20 > the network's rules, and as such the network's rules have pretty=20 > limited effect.=20 So here, you are saying The Cat would be noneffective at reducing spam. > And moreover the proposal would intentionally and knowingly confiscate=20 > millions of dollars in funds.=20 You just finished telling us "the network rules have a pretty limited=20 effect" and now you tell us The Cat would result in the confiscation of=20 millions of dollars in funds.=C2=A0 That sounds conflicting and contradicto= ry=20 to me. Furthermore, dropping the spam UTXOs from the UTXO set would not=20 delete any spam, they still would have ownership of it, they just=20 wouldn't be able to sell it or transfer it to anyone else on L1. Furthermore, those are all dust UTXOs. An unbelievably high amount of=20 them would have to be on chain to amount to "millions of dollars in=20 funds". This should give us a clue about the scale of the problem. I=20 hope you get on board with The Cat now, not in a few years when it will=20 be a much bigger problem in the billions of dollars in funds, not mere=20 millions. > This is outright theft, and I believe it makes the idea a total=20 > non-starter. Not confiscation, not theft, as they spam would remain on chain, they=20 simply would not be able to sell their spam on Bitcoin, therefore The=20 Cat would deincintivize them from profiting on Bitcoin. Furthermore,=20 they could opt to consolidate they multiple dust UTXOs and avoid losing=20 their bitcoin, prior to activation of The Cat. > They absolutely will be valued by this proposal stealing their=20 > bitcoins,=C2=A0 but their NFT grifting will not ultimately be effected=20 > otherwise. If they lose "millions of dollars in funds" as you claim, thus making=20 their business must less profitable, I would call that a success, not=20 ineffective at all. Thank you, I am the founder and CEO of Opsosoft S.A de S.V. , coder, and=20 bitcoiner since 2016. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= ae116ad9-1295-4220-891c-12ec9969ca05%40gmail.com. --------------zARkABjZjFnFOXvVFdqTo0Hj Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Greg and list,

Techniques to minimize usage are well understood, widely deployed, and the cost of storing data that way is very high so none happens except by those who are very motivated and financially capable (and that motivation and means results in speed bumps having little effect, -- or even positive effect, as the remaining abuses appear to find bitcoin's costs/restrictions highly desirable to create scarcity for their tokens).
=C2=A0
Here, your argument runs completely opposite of the claim that "the miner fees are the filter". You appear to be claiming that dping nothing about spam, making it easier for spammers and being more accommodating to them is the way to go. Unfortunately, that's the approach we have taken for the last 3 years while spam only gets worst.

The reality is that making it harder, more costly, and less convenient for spammers to keep going will result in less spam, not more. While it's possible that the remaining spam might be valued higher by the market, I don't really care about the price of spam, I only care to reduce the amount of it, not the price. Less spam is the objective here. I'm not concerned with the price of spam, only the quantity of spam.

You seem to approach spam like a bullied kid, afraid that if we fight back against spam, the big mean spam bully might spam us harder. I can't accept this kind of approach. Bitcoin requires and adversarial mindset, not one of compliance and submission when faced with an attacker.

The proposed gain is some negligible one time reduction in utxo disk space.

Between 40 and 50% of the UTXO set is comprised of spam UTXOs with dust amounts. Even more conservative estimates put it at 30%. The Cat would remove those spam NMUs from the UTXO set. I hardly view that as negligible. Furthermore, The Cat would send a strong signal to spammers: you are not welcomed on Bitcoin, we are rugging you, and we might do it again. This likely would reduce future spam activity on Bitcoin, further protecting the UTXO set.

Were such a proposal seriously advanced it would likely cause a new flood of transactions both to move to evade it directly and as a result of NFT indexer changes to just "wormhole" the tokens to new outputs after the fact (and a new marketing opportunity=C2=A0for th= e NFT gifters).

As Claire already explained, with millions of cases of spam, this would cause a massive block space demand increase and a large fee spike which would prove very costly to spammers. And retaking a new snapshot would force them to do it again. Someone needs to feed the poor miners!

NFTs are just an imaginary parallel world that don't depend on the network to validate their activity, so they don't really care about the network's rules, and as such the network's rules have pretty limited effect.=C2=A0=C2=A0

So here, you are saying The Cat would be noneffective at reducing spam.=C2=A0

<= /p>

And moreover the proposal would intentionally and knowingly confiscate millions of dollars in funds.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
You just finished telling us "the network rules have a pretty limited effect" and now you tell us The Cat would result in the confiscation of millions of dollars in funds.=C2=A0 That sounds conflicting and contradictory to me. Furthermore, dropping the spam UTXOs from the UTXO set would not delete any spam, they still would have ownership of it, they just wouldn't be able to sell it or transfer it to anyone else on L1.

Furthermo= re, those are all dust UTXOs. An unbelievably high amount of them would have to be on chain to amount to "millions of dollars in funds". This should give us a clue about the scale of the problem. I hope you get on board with The Cat now, not in a few years when it will be a much bigger problem in the billions of dollars in funds, not mere millions.

This is outright theft, and I believe it makes the idea a total non-starter.
Not confiscation, not theft, as they spam would remain on chain, they simply would not be able to sell their spam on Bitcoin, therefore The Cat would deincintivize them from profiting on Bitcoin. Furthermore, they could opt to consolidate they multiple dust UTXOs and avoid losing their bitcoin, prior to activation of The Cat.

<= span style=3D"font-size:80%;">They absolutely will be valued by this proposal stealing their bitcoins,=C2=A0 but their NFT grifting will not ultimately be effected otherwise.

If they lose "millions of dollars in funds" as you claim, thus making their business must less profitable, I would call that a success, not ineffective at all.


Thank you, I am the founder and CEO of Opsosoft S.A de S.V. , coder, and bitcoiner since 2016.=C2=A0

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