From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:13 -0700 Received: from mail-ot1-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1vDQT2-0003Kh-Pn for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:13 -0700 Received: by mail-ot1-f56.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7c53030704dsf5035435a34.1 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1761583986; x=1762188786; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=31qKFKiK2mkXn3erksZ7DFn2iZ9eGohTsY5nsriJXIA=; b=QnkIwz604nqpvShrXae2/+IduTy2Z3SygK3fnwn8VuKwKDpqPIwCC0KinGae1oDIbY n1T7MKdS9Ld21HyNZs/wmWPOoANja1fivfKshZTLaOOFNjYt8j/DZw/RNGTg/7WgycrS ClOpv51wrvIVZhl0k9B3MYTM/B1dt4PGMAb1w6E3d0bvP9EgvQL7AZ3OLTo0w/tAFH23 bTvA+iXOeLP80VgI6cC0dXF2mwO+LiPKAm0aws9h8lwemjGAVIbkRAWoN0tcGgyr9quP spH8aQqsffsJEdtJqQjYn3AXpd6sDuxX7KEa7dKVC7gjy95kiF4Sc1KHprQ7gIMLrqNx bb3A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1761583986; x=1762188786; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=31qKFKiK2mkXn3erksZ7DFn2iZ9eGohTsY5nsriJXIA=; b=TzKPVT7R/fMt9BnL84/CsBbisXdfYFk/23Hoa1LYXKbIgRJMFl9oJqlKrAsk0k9WHf 0OUb21b2fQ31O3Md6qJnNoFy9FSCKHsxNgHM4u8UX96hpJ5QKT+MINJrVzErqEdDeuqu hflLaxdKqbe33PeZL5Vh2TXehpvEANPTIBEmer4RdNI/dUgUfHJMrTcGiMca//ntIgdY 5s7kJJHGyk6ZGOuCKfEzu/sL3momx2vaeStx1QIAGttlQ9Hrh4BLDZVNjFYZs9BkCD5y Aou38opycZcWOXMebyW+zUToBm0iW8+ctBWoNOIIPOz/NweN0QZO6D2dT9z0TO4MOd/B SczA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1761583986; x=1762188786; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=31qKFKiK2mkXn3erksZ7DFn2iZ9eGohTsY5nsriJXIA=; b=ATEkWd62gfPPxGkpk47uzTPVVfksDZLX0QMKHsL4uG5VMaTr6uOL/yrWrQdiexysyG InJBc/wjkwTnPQn86mLoAsaoBKmVt7C0zTx2dzNI+e1pIm3wgDCCnWPSNoARSB2F5MOo y66skiLuxgPLGHp7JgcpLJWeKmRvj1onJsgbfVv7rEssnJJsbDJ1YTmwylHy5YVn/QwK ZvqxW0gAri6+xLxKFop2cicRfPHBya0z8Ddm7PTRqKRkGnNQYe2SBKo8O+63LFA+SDSZ HkwPW9oFb8akta9v32dwnlLOA9QFfN5tnyP7A1+0lOY0yWeW6jnJgMXx3+KbzDoErwcR GZqQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUOX916fjF2LljN0NPH7irJN0ZI1xe7u2V3eliEQQd1E/Ptcw02Gmm9bHSbwBdK3EERCQsNpJ0Pf+Xj@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw1fZl1Vd8XTxUfjGE3dLCuAKbIt6jBJvnne3r9Tq6YzR9MyhsN uM80ZqyltqvU3hmCtuV952DgYf9rjB1ymX/kar0tmhY9kdUXaPZfcoXL X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGZxlPPJ3SKnE0b9+HZAhvxuTgxaFZUdt/ux8qxpg5VwENXgS0DnM9HUFeaq0xj3B3KI4mJsA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2228:b0:43f:76e6:871a with SMTP id 5614622812f47-44f6b9dc759mr184551b6e.24.1761583986485; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h="Ae8XA+Y4Bhcf+h5TSCDvtNdoA+652MbMTEMSL+R8z0LzBYhMEA==" Received: by 2002:a4a:dc8b:0:b0:650:2558:7916 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-654d7d6f4bfls1371415eaf.1.-pod-prod-01-us; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:182a:b0:44d:a4d3:b6a6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-44f6baec16dmr227624b6e.35.1761583981336; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:9513:b0:780:f7eb:fdf with SMTP id 00721157ae682-785db0a4e46ms7b3; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6083:b0:784:9346:427e with SMTP id 00721157ae682-78617e938fbmr4621227b3.29.1761582917690; Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) From: TheWrlck To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Reduced Data Temporary Softfork MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_608640_1540002285.1761582917330" X-Original-Sender: thewrlckdev@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) ------=_Part_608640_1540002285.1761582917330 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_608641_312794469.1761582917330" ------=_Part_608641_312794469.1761582917330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m not convinced that restricting or discouraging non-transactiona= l data=20 is the right approach. While limiting data size may reduce certain abuses,= =20 it also constrains legitimate use cases that leverage Bitcoin=E2=80=99s=20 data-carrying capabilities (e.g. commitments, metadata, or novel=20 protocols). From a consensus-layer perspective, Bitcoin should remain=20 neutral about how data is interpreted or used, as long as it follows the=20 defined rules and pays the required fees. Imposing normative judgments=20 about "spam" risks introducing subjective policy where objective validation= =20 should suffice. Il giorno luned=C3=AC 27 ottobre 2025 alle 06:36:37 UTC+1 dath...@proton.me= ha=20 scritto: > Jameson - > > You mention "technical concerns" but don't give any examples. Would you= =20 > mind sharing one? > > You also mention "the underlying implication of using legal coercion to= =20 > require miners and other network participants to comply with arbitrary=20 > legal and moral frameworks", but I don't think the BIP implies this at al= l. > > The BIP merely highlights a legal risk Bitcoin Core 30 has created for=20 > node operators for no good reason, and attempts to eliminate it. No=20 > "coercion" is implied. You and anyone else who are fine shouldering this= =20 > risk are free to stay on the old data-friendly chain. I doubt you will ha= ve=20 > much company, though. > > Best, > > Dathon > > On Sunday, October 26th, 2025 at 2:49 PM, Jameson Lopp < > jameso...@gmail.com> wrote: > > It's quite clear from the PR discussion that there are a multitude of=20 > contentious issues at play with this proposal. > > Even aside from all of the technical concerns, the underlying implication= =20 > of using legal coercion to require miners and other network participants = to=20 > comply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks makes it a non-starter i= n=20 > my opinion. > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 3:43=E2=80=AFPM dathonohm via Bitcoin Development= Mailing=20 > List wrote: > >> Hi list - >> >> Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has become necessary t= o=20 >> move forward on luke-jr's ML proposal=20 >> to temporarily limit=20 >> arbitrary data at the consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks with no= =20 >> objections: >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017 >> >> The idea is to strongly re-affirm in consensus that bitcoin is money, no= t=20 >> data storage. It is implemented as a temporary softfork that can activat= e=20 >> in one of two different ways: proactive, or reactive. >> >> After a year, the soft fork expires, giving us time to come up with a=20 >> more permanent solution. >> >> The timeline is a bit tight, but I think everyone has incentives to=20 >> support a quick and orderly activation. >> >> Please feel free to leave a comment on the PR or reach out to me over=20 >> email with any feedback.=20 >> >> There is much work still to do, so if you have some technical skills and= =20 >> would like to join in the effort with dev/testing, please reach out as w= ell. >> >> Bitcoin is money. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Dathon Ohm=20 >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit=20 >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/AWiF9dIo9yjUF9RAs_NLwYdGK11= BF8C8oEArR6Cys-rbcZ8_qs3RoJURqK3CqwCCWM_zwGFn5n3RECW_j5hGS01ntGzPLptqcOyOej= unYsU%3D%40proton.me >> . >> > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 > email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion visit=20 > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_caKFvypdDa2k-Hhy1QCMJ= gnb6Rc8i0vBRW9%3Dyoq4h2ZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= c81c7dc0-d96e-4d29-bbeb-6c06aba21ef7n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_608641_312794469.1761582917330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m not convinced that restricting or discouraging non-transactiona= l data is the right approach. While limiting data size may reduce certain a= buses, it also constrains legitimate use cases that leverage Bitcoin=E2=80= =99s data-carrying capabilities (e.g. commitments, metadata, or novel proto= cols). From a consensus-layer perspective, Bitcoin should remain neutral ab= out how data is interpreted or used, as long as it follows the defined rule= s and pays the required fees. Imposing normative judgments about "spam" ris= ks introducing subjective policy where objective validation should suffice.=
Il giorno= luned=C3=AC 27 ottobre 2025 alle 06:36:37 UTC+1 dath...@proton.me ha scrit= to:
Jameson -

You m= ention "technical concerns" but don't give any examples. Woul= d you mind sharing one?

<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);b= ackground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">You also mention "the underlying imp= lication of using legal coercion to require miners and other network partic= ipants to comply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks", but I don= 't think the BIP implies this at all.

The BIP merely highligh= ts a legal risk Bitcoin Core 30 has created for node operators for no good = reason, and attempts to eliminate it. No "coercion" is implied. Y= ou and anyone else who are fine shouldering this risk are free to stay on t= he old data-friendly chain. I doubt you will have much company, though.

Best,

Dathon

On Sunday, October 26th, 2025 at 2:49 PM, Jameson Lopp <jameso...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's quite clear from the PR discussion th= at there are a multitude of contentious issues at play with this proposal.<= div>
Even aside from all of the technical concerns, the under= lying implication of using legal coercion to require miners and other netwo= rk participants to comply with arbitrary legal and moral frameworks makes i= t a non-starter in my opinion.

On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 3:43=E2=80=AFPM= dathonohm via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitco...@googlegroups.com> w= rote:
Hi list -

Due to Bitcoin Core v30 gaining in popularity, it has= become necessary to move forward on luke-jr's ML proposal to temporarily limit arbitrary data at the = consensus level, which so far has 3 weeks with no objections:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2017

The idea is to strongly re-affirm in con= sensus that bitcoin is money, not data storage. It is implemented as a temp= orary softfork that can activate in one of two different ways: proactive, o= r reactive.

After a year= , the soft fork expires, giving us time to come up with a more permanent so= lution.

The timeline is = a bit tight, but I think everyone has incentives to support a quick and ord= erly activation.

Please feel= free to leave a comment on the PR or reach out to me over email with any f= eedback.

There is much work still to do, so if= you have some technical skills and would like to join in the effort with d= ev/testing, please reach out as well.

Bitcoin i= s money.

Sincerely,

Dathon Ohm

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitc= oindev+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://gr= oups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/AWiF9dIo9yjUF9RAs_NLwYdGK11BF8C8oEArR6Cy= s-rbcZ8_qs3RoJURqK3CqwCCWM_zwGFn5n3RECW_j5hGS01ntGzPLptqcOyOejunYsU%3D%40pr= oton.me.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitc= oindev+...@googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/c81c7dc0-d96e-4d29-bbeb-6c06aba21ef7n%40googlegroups.com.
------=_Part_608641_312794469.1761582917330-- ------=_Part_608640_1540002285.1761582917330--